Thread: A Definition, Please

All,

In spite of all the misinformation, disinformation and outright false statements from this forum, it has become obvious that nobody has ever actually defined what they mean by:

"If they had a system that worked, they wouldn't sell it".

OK, let's make this simple:

What's the accepted, reasonable definition of "a system that worked"?

AD

Thats a Hard one because of guys like LOL LOTI and his eventually 5 billion shoes down the road there is a probability and possibility of failure etc, etc. To me its a system that you have tested to whatever extent is comfortable to you, that you have a bankroll for and that has been working consistently well in actual play for about a year?
Something that you feel good about making money with works for me

Why would anybody sell anything that worked? LOVE???

You could make all the money you want "all by yourself" and skip all the grief.

And (I realise hotdog stated the same) if anything did truly work, you wouldn't want every Tom Dick and Mary playing it, because you sell it once, it will get passed on and for sure the game would be changed, just like they have changed BJ over the years (no mid shoe entry).

Originally Posted by Egalite

Why would anybody sell anything that worked? LOVE???

You could make all the money you want "all by yourself" and skip all the grief.

And (I realise hotdog stated the same) if anything did truly work, you wouldn't want every Tom Dick and Mary playing it, because you sell it once, it will get passed on and for sure the game would be changed, just like they have changed BJ over the years (no mid shoe entry).

At the end of the day, it really is that simple.

Gentlemen, we're getting off track already. Let's stay focused.

The question is whether anyone can define what "a system that worked" is.

Not if you'd give it away or keep it.

So, what's the definition of "A System That Worked".

AD

I think that "A System That Worked" could have a varied answer in that "A System That Worked" could be a system that won money in every shoe played or it could be a system that simply showed a positive ROI over X number of shoes or Y number of days played.

So I would use the low end of the scale here and say that "A System That Worked" would be a system that showed a low double digit positive ROI (10% - 15%) over 10 - 15 shoes played. Worst case scenario would then be a 10% roi over 15 shoes and best case would be 15% over 10 shoes. YMMV

Originally Posted by ADulay

Gentlemen, we're getting off track already. Let's stay focused.

The question is whether anyone can define what "a system that worked" is.

Not if you'd give it away or keep it.

So, what's the definition of "A System That Worked".

AD

Something that didn't lose, or at worst losses very little, obviously wins taking care of themselves. Breaking even (or close too) is acceptable for me, however I don't subscribe to quitting a shoe once a pre-defined draw-down has been reached, as I don't subscribe to prior results having any influence on future hands / patterns / single side domination or whatever. If any system relies on quitting a shoe, in which case entering a new shoe could produce the same problem.

For me a method that works is one that provides a regular return as a percentage of yer lifetime bankroll. For me that works out to just about 3% per day for my current style, hey hey.

I totally agree with you. Typically if someone is selling "the system that works" it means this system works but with a big risk and they can't use it for them selves or maybe the system gives low revenue so it is better to sell it for quick money. casino reviews

Hey Kasinas Labas, I noticed you are from Latvia , I go to Lithuania quite often. Have played Olympic casino in Vilnius and Warsaw when I played roulette only. Havent been in a year do they play baccarat over in your part of the world? was in Puerto Rico last weekend and thought it would be ideal winter get away and it was and Casinos every other block but no baccarat (big let down)

Originally Posted by Kasinas

I totally agree with you. Typically if someone is selling "the system that works" it means this system works but with a big risk and they can't use it for them selves or maybe the system gives low revenue so it is better to sell it for quick money.

I believe you've missed the question entirely.

We're not asking whether or not they need to sell it or should sell it or if anyone thinks it's a valid system play.

We're asking what your definition is of a "system that works".

Come on, this shouldn't be all that difficult.

If you don't know what you're looking for, why are you even looking?

AD

IMHO i belive a system that works is one that keeps your bankroll up and wins about more than half the time, and that does not get killed by certain groups or patterns.
some people share there systems which is great but some people work really hard on there systems and test them extensively (not sure if i spelled that right) and if they win good for them they dont have to share there systems because what happens if they use all that time and headache of testing and then share and then everybody knows and then the casino knows and all of sudden casino changes the game up and everybody starts all over trying a new method and then poor guy who made that great method is thinking wtf did i just do.

sorry about the poor grammar.

Originally Posted by ADulay

All,

In spite of all the misinformation, disinformation and outright false statements from this forum, it has become obvious that nobody has ever actually defined what they mean by:

"If they had a system that worked, they wouldn't sell it".

OK, let's make this simple:

What's the accepted, reasonable definition of "a system that worked"?

AD

There has NEVER been any system seller that could back up his claims. ALL systems fail. If you use a "system" you will lose your bankroll, either relatively quickly or slowly over time, it doesn't matter.

BTW, shills for system sellers shouldn't try to sound smart defending systems that they shill for. VERY transparent.

Originally Posted by Free

There has NEVER been any system seller that could back up his claims. ALL systems fail. If you use a "system" you will lose your bankroll, either relatively quickly or slowly over time, it doesn't matter.

BTW, shills for system sellers shouldn't try to sound smart defending systems that they shill for. VERY transparent.

OK, one more time for the dullards among us here in this previously, serious thread.

The question is not whether any of these system sellers are scammers, deadbeats, jerks or clowns.

The question, even for Mr Free, the new guru of BF, the question remains.....

What is a good definition of a system that is good enough to keep and hold?

If you would like, I can use smaller words.

But in the meantime, try to stay on topic and attempt to answer the question. As even you can plainly see, NOBODY knows what they're looking for but they'll condemn anybody with an idea that costs more than two cents. I believe there's a medical name for this reaction but I'm trying to keep the words small so I'll just say something like "Pavlovian" or "lemming" and hopefully a few of the readers will look it up.

So, give it a try. What's your definition? What are YOU searching for.

All system sellers are scammers. That's already been determined. No need to harp on it anymore. You've all proved your masculinity with your statements.

Now let's see some thinking.

AD

I answered your stupid question Andy, are you undertaking a marketing survey? Is Maverick looking to vamp up yet again, were anybody who loses gets roasted by the resident mouthpiece for the scammers. Maybe you will be there in the background at Ellis / Benson's seminar asking real relevant questions, like "how much can I expect to win". "how rich are you", usual "get the crowd going" stuff like that.

I think we are all aware of those street hawkers selling fake expensive perfume very cheap on the side walk, usually one "plant" gets the crowd going by making an offer, ever considered that line of work? There is nothing serious about this thread, nothing magnanimous how you "fronted up / dismissed " those on this site that lost money after being sucked in by the Maverick / Ellis shite. SHILL.

Well, once again another thread has crashed and burned into the usual junk. Obviously there is no point in having any serious discussions as sooner or later they collapse into some kind of "scammer, shill, liar, cheat, fill in the blank" shouting match.

If you have nothing to add, don't post. The original question remains and I did see where you attempted an answer. Thanks.

I can see that this particular thread will now dissolve as I'll be leaving it and with nobody to respond to the usual cast of character ranting and raving, you'll have nobody to throw rocks at.

Enjoy your game guys. There's a car and motorcycle show at the casino this weekend. May as well ride on down, get some free play, make some money and enjoy it for what it is.

You guys can continue to do whatever it is you all do when you're not throwing rocks!

30,000 members of which maybe 150 are active here every day and only 4 serious replies in this thread. That points to a lot of people who haven't got a clue as to what they're looking for.

Good luck.

AD

Originally Posted by ADulay

All,

In spite of all the misinformation, disinformation and outright false statements from this forum, it has become obvious that nobody has ever actually defined what they mean by:

"If they had a system that worked, they wouldn't sell it".

OK, let's make this simple:

What's the accepted, reasonable definition of "a system that worked"?

AD

I have to assume you don't mean "worked" but "works." In any case the answer is simple. If "worked" then any system that has ever produced a profit. If "works" then a system that has a positive expected value. Since none do have such the whole question is moot. There is no "system" that works.

A

More may have treated your banal question more seriously had it been posted by somebody else. WTF did you expect? Short memories? People have been scammed, lost money by joining the Maverick bandwagon, maybe one or two got sucked in by your endless bullshit "maverick pulled xx units from that shoe". I'm sure you know the web site, the one which you are/were the gatekeeper, not only that, you downplay / dismiss / discredit anybody who mentions it over on this site.

Why re-appear? Smooth / test the waters? Looking for fresh meat? Discuss Baccarat? The only discussion we ever got from you is, I played one of ellis's or mavericks scams, AND THAT IS IT, FULL STOP. Bloody great useful discussion, if your looking to get ripped off. So now you want members to tell you how they define a winning system, sounds like a marketing ploy to me, is that maverick con-man due to be released soon? Or maybe you want to help ellis with some stooge marketing ploys for his upcoming wankfest with Benson.

Originally Posted by Egalite

More may have treated your banal question more seriously had it been posted by somebody else.

Maybe you hadn't noticed lately, but there's not a lot of people in this forum who can even write a coherent paragraph, let alone ask an intelligent question about baccarat.

Would it have been better to log in under another userID and ask the question?

Here's an idea. Why don't YOU start a new thread and ask the question. Maybe you'll get more people, maybe even fauzy, to give their ideas.

You keep accusing me of some sort of ulterior motive for asking this question. I can assure you there is none, but I believe I may have already proved my point on the actual amount of real baccarat players in this place.

On my "endless BS" as you like to call it, I think you'll remember that I was always posting up results of shoes along with others and got shouted down several times to not post any more. It appears that you actually believe that I'm the one "scamming" people. Your continued rage from bad sessions at the casino show in your postings. Try a little decaf.

Anyway, you seem to think I'm on some kind of "marketing ploy" but that wouldn't make any sense, much like this current conversation.

I"ll ask you the same thing I asked Garnabbable before he got canned for gross stupidity:

Just what is it you want from me that will soothe your troubled ego and allow me to post in relative peace here? Or is it that you just like to yell and scream and jump up and down and look like you're doing something to save the world's population of false baccarat players.

If it will make you really happy, I'd leave as the amount of information here ranks right up there with Gambler's Glen anymore, just less swearing here.

At least with me, you get a known factor. I've been on all the baccarat boards worth mentioning using a single ID. I've not sold anything to anyone and all of my reports are truthful. If you, personally, don't like the way I play, don't play that way. But that doesn't really give you the right to jump all over me because I chose to fix my game in a different way than you did.

I just don't get all the animosity that you and a few others (that lemming thing) show whenever I post up.

It's a simple matter here to push everybody's button and just mention Ellis' name and it will all start up all over again. That's just stupid. How many times can you rehash the same old stories? Not a very efficient way to get ahead or learn anything I'm sure.

Oh well, this has gotten way off track from the original idea. Sorry for the length of this but I had some free time to kill.

I don't know what to add. Anything else I put in here will be shouted down as some type of scam. It's kind of sad, really.

AD

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaadoooooooooooooolllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaa aayyyyyyy, you sure know how to get folks all riled up, hey hey.

Andy I don't know why you try act so dumb and innocent. You know exactly what you do, if you don't then you must be real dense. You advertise, promote scams, yes you post winning shoes, however all you say is, you won XX units by playing maverick shite or ellis's latest creation and that is it. You don't explain anything, basically if you can't see it as being a shill, well you are even MORE DEVIOUS than a lot on this forum already expect.

A few who have lost money by sending it to your friend Mark, have voiced their thoughts here and up steps the gatekeeper of the maverick scam to shout them down. You know exactly the game you are playing, and it is in not in the interest of any decent genuine board member. If Mark and Ellis are the pimps then, it makes you the whore. Maybe you would be better off where you belong. As for your original post, is there any point to it, it's just another of those lame questions, not much use to anybody

Originally Posted by Egalite

If Mark and Ellis are the pimps then, it makes you the whore.

Thanks for the kind words.
Spoken like a real man, from behind a keyboard. Please, try to be civil in person.

Originally Posted by Egalite

Maybe you would be better off where you belong.

I don't think I understand that one but I'm currently much better off, baccarat wise, now than I was two years ago.

Originally Posted by Egalite

As for your original post, is there any point to it, it's just another of those lame questions, not much use to anybody

No, the original post asked basically if anyone had any idea of what they were actually looking for in a system play. So far only a few at least have SOME idea of what they're searching for.

Originally Posted by Egalite

You don't explain anything.

I used to, but got shouted out of the discussions, so now I just point to LOTI's list of programs and let anyone figure it out on their own.

Now the question becomes how much longer do we want to continue this back and forth banter?

You firmly, and I just have to believe, honestly think I'm a shill or plant for Ellis, Benson, Maverick and probably that Let's Talk Winning guy. Evidently nothing is going to change your mind so it is kind of pointless to continue this discussion.

If you can be civil for at least one message, I'm sure we can end it on a good note as I'll have no need to reply to defend myself against the usual continued tirade of scammerville and shilltown.

At least when Garnababble sent his tirades at me, it was comical. Your stuff seems downright mean.

Chill out, it's just another game of chance.

So, what say ye? Are you done or should I keep checking in to see what's next on the list of false accusations.

AD

Originally Posted by Egalite

You don't explain anything, basically if you can't see it as being a shill, well you are even MORE DEVIOUS than a lot on this forum already expect.

Devious? What would I be devious with or for or whatever?

What would you like me to explain? When people ask me what I'm playing, I tell them. It's up to them to decide if they want to play that way.

If you had a good system play and I was using it, I'd do the same thing. Does that automatically make me a "shill" for you?? I think not.

You seem to be blinded by the Ellis thing for some reason and it just sets you guys off.

When I was posting up MULTIPLE results from MULTIPLE systems on posted shoes, I posted ALL of the current systems I was playing. Generally that was 4 or 5 different ones. Amazingly, I was posting up wins from the shoes that were showing up. None of them were mine, they were from other people who posted them and asked how other people would do it.

I would run each shoe through all of them and post it up. It was time consuming. It was a pain to run the same shoe 5 different ways.

I was immediately accused of faking the system plays, probably because most of them were from "E". In reality, two of them were my own plays, which have held up nicely over the intervening months, but nobody wanted to hear about that because a few of the system plays were from the unGodly Ellis clan.

What can I say. I played all the posted shoes the same way. A very high percentage of wins. I got accused of playing selectively. I got accused of shilling.

I quit posting and got a life.

So, it would appear that I'm almost back to that spot again. I had a lot of free time this week and decided to jump back into the fray. It's been a pretty horrible experience again so luckily the new week should slow down my participation.

In the mean time, let me know what you want explained and I'll point you in the correct direction for the answers.

AD

Andy, how come you haven't responded to the several posts that took your question seriously but instead got into the fray with egalite?

Regarding posting shoes: I haven't reviewed any of them so correct me if I am mistaken. Posting a shoe without saying how and why one played the way one did is meaningless. Playing an example shoe 4 or 5 different ways is also meaningless. There is always a placement method to beat every shoe. The question is how, when and why one selects a method? (As requested I am letting you know what I want explained.​) If you haven't talked about that all you got is a bunch of "proprietary" bet placement methods that people got to pay money for. IOW, nothing. Ellis has dozens, Frits Dunki-Jacobs now has at least a dozen, we can go down the list.

Archer

Originally Posted by ADulay

Devious? What would I be devious with or for or whatever?

What would you like me to explain? When people ask me what I'm playing, I tell them. It's up to them to decide if they want to play that way.

If you had a good system play and I was using it, I'd do the same thing. Does that automatically make me a "shill" for you?? I think not.

You seem to be blinded by the Ellis thing for some reason and it just sets you guys off.

When I was posting up MULTIPLE results from MULTIPLE systems on posted shoes, I posted ALL of the current systems I was playing. Generally that was 4 or 5 different ones. Amazingly, I was posting up wins from the shoes that were showing up. None of them were mine, they were from other people who posted them and asked how other people would do it.

I would run each shoe through all of them and post it up. It was time consuming. It was a pain to run the same shoe 5 different ways.

I was immediately accused of faking the system plays, probably because most of them were from "E". In reality, two of them were my own plays, which have held up nicely over the intervening months, but nobody wanted to hear about that because a few of the system plays were from the unGodly Ellis clan.

What can I say. I played all the posted shoes the same way. A very high percentage of wins. I got accused of playing selectively. I got accused of shilling.

I quit posting and got a life.

So, it would appear that I'm almost back to that spot again. I had a lot of free time this week and decided to jump back into the fray. It's been a pretty horrible experience again so luckily the new week should slow down my participation.

In the mean time, let me know what you want explained and I'll point you in the correct direction for the answers.

AD

Originally Posted by Archer

Andy, how come you haven't responded to the several posts that took your question seriously but instead got into the fray with egalite?

I just went back and didn't see any questions. Messages #13,15,18,20 and 21 pretty much declare me to be a shill, scam, part of a wankfest, devious and that I am "riling up" the board! Not a question in the bunch.

Originally Posted by Archer

Regarding posting shoes: I haven't reviewed any of them so correct me if I am mistaken. Posting a shoe without saying how and why one played the way one did is meaningless. Playing an example shoe 4 or 5 different ways is also meaningless.

What I was posting were the results of several different system plays that were available to anyone who wanted them. As they were all basically mechanical systems with some sort of stop-loss, there was no need to explain how to play them, they just played out on autopilot and anybody was free to use those methods as they saw fit. My only contribution to the thread was to merely PLAY the multiple systems on a previous posted shoe from somebody else and report the results for all of the plays.

Originally Posted by Archer

There is always a placement method to beat every shoe. The question is how, when and why one selects a method?

That's what I was posting up. Multiple system type plays and the reader was free to decide which one works best for them. As they were all mechanical, it was up to the reader to decide which one worked for them.

Here's hoping this clears up the confusion on system results that were posted up.

AD

Originally Posted by ADulay

I just went back and didn't see any questions. Messages #13,15,18,20 and 21 pretty much declare me to be a shill, scam, part of a wankfest, devious and that I am "riling up" the board! Not a question in the bunch.


What I was posting were the results of several different system plays that were available to anyone who wanted them. As they were all basically mechanical systems with some sort of stop-loss, there was no need to explain how to play them, they just played out on autopilot and anybody was free to use those methods as they saw fit. My only contribution to the thread was to merely PLAY the multiple systems on a previous posted shoe from somebody else and report the results for all of the plays.


That's what I was posting up. Multiple system type plays and the reader was free to decide which one works best for them. As they were all mechanical, it was up to the reader to decide which one worked for them.

Here's hoping this clears up the confusion on system results that were posted up.

AD

Well I don't think you posted up any system rules, did you? Anyhow mechanical systems cannot work for one and not the other. In fact they don't work at all so my question to you still stands, "The question is how, when and why one selects a method?" (in order to win).

Then the other thing is why did you ask the question about a definition? and not discuss it further? Why do you think that is an important question? You must if you asked it. What is your definition?

I am not trying to nit pick. There are folks here who really want to figure out how to win and a lot of these posts give the wrong impression. That people can win with them so they pony up dough to the likes of the sellers.

A

Archer,

First off, thanks for the continued civil replies. They are much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Archer

Well I don't think you posted up any system rules, did you?

There were no system rules to post up. At the time, LOTI has every system posted in his listing and it was available to everyone on the board. I just cherry picked the systems I thought worked the best at the time.

Originally Posted by Archer

Anyhow mechanical systems cannot work for one and not the other. In fact they don't work at all so my question to you still stands, "The question is how, when and why one selects a method?" (in order to win).

I agree. Mechanical systems cannot win forever. At best, they'll merely zero out, if you're lucky.

Originally Posted by Archer

Then the other thing is why did you ask the question about a definition? and not discuss it further?

Believe me, I've tried to make a serious discussion out of it but have become sidetracked by the usual circus that accompanies any posting with the "E" word in it. You would think I'd know that by now.

Why did I ask the question? Well, to at least try to make people ask themselves just what in the heck are they looking for. Most of the posters here are grasping at some phantom system play to "make millions" or "bring the casino to their knees" when in reality they should be thinking about how to walk out of a casino with more money than they walked in with. And evidently only a few have some idea of what they're looking for. That was the reason to start the thread. To attempt to find a common ground that everyone might concede is a valid "goal" in the game that would keep them happy month after month.

What type of play would make the most people feel like they were winning. If nobody knows what it looks like, how can you find it?

Originally Posted by Archer

Why do you think that is an important question? You must if you asked it. What is your definition?

Hmm, I think I just answered that in the last paragraph but for the last part, my definition would be in the class of a system play that allows me to consistently feel like I have a slight advantage, at least mentally, to sit down and play without the fear that I'm about to be wiped out in the next five minutes. I want to be able to look at the evolving shoe and "think" that I might have an idea of where my next two or three wagers "should" go. Obviously this is not a guarantee, it is merely a percentage play as I see it and am comfortable with.

How would I know if I'm on the right track? What's the "test" to see if this method is correct for me? Well, watching the monthly and quarterly stat sheet and seeing how it's going. Is the overall trend in profit? Are there spike's in there that show where I'm consistantly making the wrong plays? Can I look at the quarter to quarter cash flow and see something positive?

If that's happening and I don't feel too stressed out when playing, then I'm a happy camper. For some people that's waiting for 10 Players in a row and then jumping all over Banker for 5 tries. It's not for me, but for somebody, that's a golden play.

If we can ever get a serious discussion going on this, we may find that others may have a better perspective on what keeps them in chips month after month. The problem is we only have maybe a dozen actual players here. The rest are merely hanging on waiting for "something big" to magically show up so they can retire to some island and live off their winnings. Kind of hard to carry on a serious conversation when only one side is talking.

Originally Posted by Archer

I am not trying to nit pick. There are folks here who really want to figure out how to win and a lot of these posts give the wrong impression. That people can win with them so they pony up dough to the likes of the sellers.

Yep, I can see that is how a lot of my posts could be construed. I've also tried to keep any references out of these replies now and with that, any implied approval of ANY method of play or system play.

You've seen me jump around enough to know that any single method/system is not going to work all the time. That's why I keep looking. I may be happy with my current play but I still keep looking. You never know when something really new or modified in some way just works better.

AD

Originally Posted by ADulay

What's the accepted, reasonable definition of "a system that worked"?

AD

A mode of play that complements the player's style, both in bet selection and money-management usages, and has proven to be consistently reliable. The key: "complementing the player's style".

I could utilize an 8-step Marty for a couple of my trend plays, and it should/would hold up rather well for some extended periods of time (read: numerous sessions). Until, of course, it doesn't hold up, and the few losses would, unfortunately, out-weigh the many prior wins. That does not suit my preferred style of play, so I prefer not to utilize it.

I prefer something that is more consistent and more reliable. Why?:

Because, no matter how I might've done for the last session or two, or last week or two, or last month or two.......each and every time I set a foot into that casino, the counter resets to ZERO. The only thing that matters to me, to anyone, is what the outcome is for THIS SESSION. How will my system (I hate that word, but it's the word Andy used in his question, so....) perform in the NOW, and what can/will I DO that will facilitate it's success, or, at the very least, lessen it's failure?

Now, because that counter resets itself at each and every new session, I prefer certain modes of play that I can "count on"; modes of play that I am both comfortable with and, at the same time, confident in. I don't want to be caught playing outside of my personal "comfort zone", for that is no way to survive this game over the long term.

So, towards that end, my system (read: mode of play), built around my own personal "player's style", is geared to acheive certain set exit points, both on the positive (read: winning) and negative (read: losing) sides. Because that counter has been reset to zero, and I need to prove myself all over again, even if I've succeeded for the past 12 out of 15 sessions; it is imperative that I utilize a mode of play that I can rely on, assuming, of course, I don't "get in the way" of it.

So I keep my goals attainable. And my "system" (read: mode of play) works for me because I am able to reach those modest goals on a rather consistent basis, and that, my friends, is the very definition of a reliable "system". All obtainable without over-reaching my own personal comfort zone, because that's the way I designed it to work (read: perform).

I know you get it, Andy, and I wish you the best of success, my friend, for I also know you to be one of the true gentleman of this Forum....a rather "rare breed" around here, as anyone can readily see.

Adulay: >....I've tried to make a serious discussion out of it but have become sidetracked by the usual circus that accompanies any posting with the "E" word in it.<

Hey, Andy...ain't that a bitch...same thing happens every time I post in this forum, too!

Originally Posted by ADulay

I just went back and didn't see any questions. Messages #13,15,18,20 and 21 pretty much declare me to be a shill, scam, part of a wankfest, devious and that I am "riling up" the board! Not a question in the bunch.

You kinda skipped #3

What I was posting were the results of several different system plays that were available to anyone who wanted them. As they were all basically mechanical systems with some sort of stop-loss, there was no need to explain how to play them, they just played out on autopilot and anybody was free to use those methods as they saw fit.

Interesting, for anybody to play the systems you "post-shoe" win with, they would first have to join either ellis's or mark's pay for view site. It's not like you every explained any of Ellis's or Mark's systems, other than to say , you play and of course win with them, utterly meaningless.

Originally Posted by Walter

Hey, Andy...ain't that a bitch...same thing happens every time I post in this forum, too!

Quit whinging and grow a pair, otherwise people make think your desperate to get people to "be my side". Maybe that is all that motivates you after losing quarter of a million bucks due to gambling.

fun , fun, fun, here we go again --what exactly is Whinging???? Is this a new baccarat term denoting betting player and banker at the same time?