Thread: Craps system that beats Zumma and 72 hours

In the world of Craps there are two tester books out there that people test their ideas with. One of them is Zumma and the other one is an out of print book called 72 hours at the craps table.


Both of the samples lean toward the DP,so there are many systems out there that beat the books betting DP only. I have already posted a system what with flat bets only beats both books making over 100 units betting both pass and DP

Now it is time for a system that wins betting Pass only. With both books being DP heavy that the system will be much harder to build? Welll I have two of them

1 did not beat 72 hours at the craps table it finished -6 units (pass bets only) I did not test it on the DP because I did not want to take the time to find the 12's on the come out rolls but I am sure 6 units would have been made. But anyway pass only -6 for 72 hours using the same progression working at diffrent times at the table

zumma craps book using the progression woriking at diffrent times finishes +68 so 68 -6 = +62 highest bet placed 3 units whole lot of action

If you only worked it one time at the table the numbers are a little diff -42 for 72 hours but +91 for zumma so it still shows a profit but as you can see working it two diff times at the table took that -42 to a -6 it also hurt the +91 but I think it is worh the trade off


So here I beat both tester books (+62) with a max bet of 3 units playing Passline only. And I also have the flat bet system that finishes over 100 units up with flat bets only so max bet of 1 unit. The other system I was going to post bets player only and has a max bet of 2 units Passline only but this post as covered enough. I am just pointing out that Bac takes a much larger BR because of the 5% on Banker so I feel that craps is a better game. I feel that my tests have shown that

1 flat bet beats both books
2 max bet of 2 units (passline only with DP heavy sample) beats both books
3 max bet of 3 units (passline only with DP heavy sample) -6 in one book +68 in the other or +91 in one and -42 in the other depending on how many diff spots you apply the progression

low budget Ideas that beat both tester books for what ever that is worth

Note I play the flat bet way live with a +2-2 stop win and have done real well with it

thats great--craps can be fun and profitable
good luck

Actually, the zumma book is slightly biased towards the pass. But, you can grind out an income at dice, so you could use surewin as written and make steady but slooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww cake just bettin the don't, hey hey.

Originally Posted by Evo

In the world of Craps there are two tester books out there that people test their ideas with. One of them is Zumma and the other one is an out of print book called 72 hours at the craps table.


Both of the samples lean toward the DP,so there are many systems out there that beat the books betting DP only. I have already posted a system what with flat bets only beats both books making over 100 units betting both pass and DP

Now it is time for a system that wins betting Pass only. With both books being DP heavy that the system will be much harder to build? Welll I have two of them

1 did not beat 72 hours at the craps table it finished -6 units (pass bets only) I did not test it on the DP because I did not want to take the time to find the 12's on the come out rolls but I am sure 6 units would have been made. But anyway pass only -6 for 72 hours using the same progression working at diffrent times at the table

zumma craps book using the progression woriking at diffrent times finishes +68 so 68 -6 = +62 highest bet placed 3 units whole lot of action

If you only worked it one time at the table the numbers are a little diff -42 for 72 hours but +91 for zumma so it still shows a profit but as you can see working it two diff times at the table took that -42 to a -6 it also hurt the +91 but I think it is worh the trade off


So here I beat both tester books (+62) with a max bet of 3 units playing Passline only. And I also have the flat bet system that finishes over 100 units up with flat bets only so max bet of 1 unit. The other system I was going to post bets player only and has a max bet of 2 units Passline only but this post as covered enough. I am just pointing out that Bac takes a much larger BR because of the 5% on Banker so I feel that craps is a better game. I feel that my tests have shown that

1 flat bet beats both books
2 max bet of 2 units (passline only with DP heavy sample) beats both books
3 max bet of 3 units (passline only with DP heavy sample) -6 in one book +68 in the other or +91 in one and -42 in the other depending on how many diff spots you apply the progression

low budget Ideas that beat both tester books for what ever that is worth

Note I play the flat bet way live with a +2-2 stop win and have done real well with it

How many decisions are in the 72-hours book? I'd guess about 5,000.

How many decisions are in the "Zumma" book?

What is the system?

Scott

i have both books---not sure if i could find both-lol

72 hours has

1826 shoters
14,967 rolls
4,525 decisions
2152 pass line winners
2373 pass line losers

Well I talked about 3 systems My flat bet system was posted on this site and other it makes over 100 units after playing both books

one system used a 1-1-2 see D bet P if you have an L you then have DD bet P if L you have DDD bet P again 2 units this time. so runs of one make you 1 unit runs of 4 or more costs you 4 units make no more bets until a new run of D has stated and bet that it will be a run of one by betting P. simple enough 72 hours 552 units won 536 lost

zcraps
1350 units won
1332 units lost

for what ever betting a tester book is worth

The system I talked about with the 3 unit high bet was play a simple 2-1-3 up an a L and then stop on a win then wait for a another run of D to start

example we see D so we bet chop (P) betting for a run 1 if we have a L we then have D-D so we bet 1 unit if we win we will reset with a 1 unit loss If we don't win we have DDD now bet 3 units break even on a win accept a 6 unit loss if it does not win so runs of 4 D or more costs us 6 units runs of 2 costs us 1 unit. single chops makes us 2 units each and a run of 3 breaks us even

now lets look at the charts

72 hours
1=552 2=264 3=160 4=59 5=36 6=19 7=12 8=5 9=1 10=1 11=1

single chops 552 makes us 2 units each = +1104 now take away 1 unit for each double chop so -264 runs of 3 or a push so we reset even 160 times
runs 4 + happens 134 times costing us 6 units each using a 2-1-3 progression so -804 units so 804 + 264 does not take away all of the 552 wins at 2 each.

I am sorry the numbers in my above post was me testing it another way

if you take the shooters as single events not worrying about what they do later the game is ez

in craps you can do either , take the shooter-the come, or the don't come and win with a mm.......

zumma number playing the 2-1-3 posted above

1350 single d chops making 2 units each 643 runs of 2 costing you 1 unit each 304 runs of 4 or more costing you 6 units each so end the end you have 2700 units won -2467 units lost for +233 units not bad for your bets never getting larger than 3 units

I got the MM from another system and I would like to know if

1 Recession-Proof Gambling System

2 TABLE GAME ATTACK (TG ATTACK)
THE MOST POWERFUL
MONEY MANAGEMENT METHOD EVER CREATED!
PLAY WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR CURRENT BET SELECTION
AND WIN A 50% RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT PER HOUR!

would build on this and what the results would be

its ez you play dp or pass w money management---dont over stress ive run the numbers also--your not going to be able to find perfect numbers--but very close to--good luck

Tomla have you looked at my flat bet system? not having the exact numbers is what makes it work

people may say that the 2-1-3 is too dependent on the 2 to make the profit Well I want to know why when I change it to 1-1-2 It still makes a profit. I can't lower my bet lower than 1 unit and yet can I? Well if you think it is the fact that with both prgressions I have a 2 or a 3 in the same slot my flat bet system makes money and it just pits runs of 1 vs runs of 2

and it makes money I think the fact that I look at streaks as a single event and chops as a single even makes this work but the poit for this whole thread was to show that craps can be beaten with a much lower BR than Bac

I still would like to look at any MM that you people may have to build on this idea but I really want to see if

1 Recession-Proof Gambling System

2 TABLE GAME ATTACK (TG ATTACK)
THE MOST POWERFUL
MONEY MANAGEMENT METHOD EVER CREATED!
PLAY WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR CURRENT BET SELECTION
AND WIN A 50% RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT PER HOUR!

would build on this and what the results would be

i haven't looked but great luck to you!

evo,
Can you post your flat bet system?

Attachment 956Attachment 956Hitman flat bet system updated.pdfhere is the list of 12's on the come out rolls for zumma if somone wants to check my work flat bet sytem is in the PDF

30 48 51 65 90 95 100 107 161 161 167 167 189 189 215 249 251 270 270 270 271 293 299 305
341 378 393 407 444 446 451 452 470 484 493 514 515 518 523 524 531 536 541 544 554 620

622 627 635 647 677 716 780 782 787 791 794 801 813 844 863 864 870 880 890 912 921 959 965 971 1010 1048 1048 1071 1119 1123 1129 1200 1216 1231 1235 1263 1275 1290 1327 1353 1355 1414 1417 1429 1430 1446 1456 1481 1483 1490 1492 1505 1510 1535 1538 1547 1558 1561 1580 1608 1608 1629 1632 1632 1632 1632 1633 1635 1635 1636 1640 1705 1709 1722 1722 1722 1723 1726 1737 1751 1755 1769 1779 1783 1801 1810 1813 1819 1825 1840 1901 1916 1918 1934 1939 1944 1961 1963 2036 2047 2049 2051 2052 2060 2071 2103 2122 2148 2163 2183 2192 2194 2225 2225 2230 2258 2266 2272 2276 2302 2326 2330 2352 2424 2450 2461 2464 2464 2466 2472 2472 2480 2484 2493 2533 2534 2550 2566 2580 2582 2589 2596 2605 2615 2618 2621 2624 2629 2629 2630 2647 2648 2654 2668 2681 2694 2707 2759 2773 2776 2778 2820 2841 2844 2860 2874 2875 2885 2927 2929 2945 2962 2978 2993 2993 3044 3046 3072 3090 3100 3100 3115 3137 3165 3169 3201 3210 3228 3234 3236 3239 3261
3267 3282 3291 3324 3341 3375 3377 3383 3383 3392 3398 3416 3433 3442 3448 3449 3453 3479 3485 3503 3509 3562 3563 3579 3589 3597 3598 3598 3604 3612 3673 3689 3730 3759 3761 3800 3816 3875 3896 3898 3904 3917 3919 3938 3949 3986 4007 4017 4031 4033 4039 4044 4062 4068 4120 4150 4158 4182 4189

I hope this helps this is all 297 12's on the come out but only the ones in the first or 3rd slot hurts us
when the 12 comes in the 3rd slot it only cost me 29 units for the whole book. when it was in the first slot I replace the bet so alot of times when the 12 came I was able to still show a profit due to me re betting +75 units for the zumma book

odds taken and the house edge

1X=0.848%
2X=0.606%
Full double odds=0.572%
3X=0.471%
3-4-5X=0.374%
5X=0.326%
10X=0.184%
20X=0.099%

so if you use odds with the 2-1-3 and have the odds make the same 2-1-3 it would take more money but look how it drops the house edge this makes it lower than banker bets in Bac even if you just did single odds

I still would like to look at any MM that you people may have to build on this idea but I really want to see if

1 Recession-Proof Gambling System

2 TABLE GAME ATTACK (TG ATTACK)
PLAY WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR CURRENT BET SELECTION
AND WIN A 50% RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT PER HOUR!

if those could be added this might really make this system worth wild

Hitman flat bet system was posted in a PDF

So now I put what I called 33 special in PDF None of this could have been done without LOTI. IF someone has a MM system I would like to see it that is why I have asked for

1 Recession-Proof Gambling System

2 TABLE GAME ATTACK (TG ATTACK)
THE MOST POWERFUL
MONEY MANAGEMENT METHOD EVER CREATED!
PLAY WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR CURRENT BET SELECTION
AND WIN A 50% RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT PER HOUR!

we can build on this but feel free to post or send me any MM system you might have

AWESOME Evo..You maybe one of the first to legitimately beat Zummas.Congradulashions..Also thanks for sharing.I had the zumma,but i think i threw it away awhile back.If i remember right each page had a timeframe of about an hour on them..That can help narrow down ur hourly expectations.I can only suggest at this time a positive MM to apply is to first use a visual..what i mean by that identify the cold tables and stay away from them..99% of crap players don't play the don'ts. people fleeing from that table u stay away..squeeze into a busy table or one with alot of hand wave and success assures in ur favor.. i remember I think on GG someone came up with a 3+ capping MM with craps which may help u there..i don't remember it...thanks again

thank you for your post.

1 I would like to say I play the flat bet system for over a year and have done well with it.

2 where I play I can trade my comps for cash and also they send me free chips about 3 or 4 a month So as you can see from a ROI stand point the flat bet is the way to go .

33 special is for the people that just want to play the pass for what ever reason. I hope that everyone was able to understand my systems and how to play them

Originally Posted by Evo

I still would like to look at any MM that you people may have to build on this idea but I really want to see if

1 Recession-Proof Gambling System

2 TABLE GAME ATTACK (TG ATTACK)
PLAY WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR CURRENT BET SELECTION
AND WIN A 50% RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT PER HOUR!

if those could be added this might really make this system worth wild

Evo, what are you referring to regarding the two highlighted points in red above?

Scott

The 3-1-2 came from a system that I got from LOTI. someone posted that it was a waste of time because the system did not work. I know that the system does not work but the system still might have MM that is worth looking at


TG is a MM system for sell for 300 dollars

PLAY WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR CURRENT BET SELECTION
AND WIN A 50% RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT PER HOUR!

is what the site claims well if I can added it to one or both of the systems I posted it would just make it stronger. I do not know how many unit they use but it clearly says I can keep my BS. Just so you know the 2-1-3 was a postive progression but I saw how with my BS that playing it neg fits my needs just fine

using what you have posted

P,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,P,DP,P the red bets you went -2 -1 -3 the green one you made 2 units

you want to bet only at the start of a DP run like you did with the last P


you will lose a lot of chop winners betting the second way

I do not see how in your exaple you hade 1 single chop DP and we did not wiss it we made 2 units. This is just for the people wanting to bet on the pass. The system is attacking the DP streaks of 3 or less that single P that you missed only ended the streak of DP it did not the BS makes us money Only on every single (1) chop of DP we are not worried about the single P chops you posted only 1 single in number DP chop and we nailed it so we did not miss anything

if you look in the PDF I only posted numbers of the DP so single DP makes us money and at no point do I talk about us making money on single p chops. All bets will be placed on P so how could we have really used that single chop of P because for us to make money we would have had to have money on the DP We only bet Pass so we only worry about single chop of DP we want money placed on every single DP run in the book hoping that it is a single chop you posted one and we bet on it. I hope this clears this up

If you wanted to play something that did worry about single chops of P then use the flat bet system from a ROI stand point it makes more +75 units vs +233 each attack you risk only 2 units vs 6 units you are only risking 1/3 of the BR but are making more than 1/3 of the profits

Originally Posted by Evo

using what you have posted

P,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,DP,P,DP,P the red bets you went -2 -1 -3 the green one you made 2 units

you want to bet only at the start of a DP run like you did with the last P


you will lose a lot of chop winners betting the second way

I do not see how in your exaple you hade 1 single chop DP and we did not wiss it we made 2 units. This is just for the people wanting to bet on the pass. The system is attacking the DP streaks of 3 or less that single P that you missed only ended the streak of DP it did not the BS makes us money Only on every single (1) chop of DP we are not worried about the single P chops you posted only 1 single in number DP chop and we nailed it so we did not miss anything

if you look in the PDF I only posted numbers of the DP so single DP makes us money and at no point do I talk about us making money on single p chops. All bets will be placed on P so how could we have really used that single chop of P because for us to make money we would have had to have money on the DP We only bet Pass so we only worry about single chop of DP we want money placed on every single DP run in the book hoping that it is a single chop you posted one and we bet on it. I hope this clears this up

If you wanted to play something that did worry about single chops of P then use the flat bet system from a ROI stand point it makes more +75 units vs +233 each attack you risk only 2 units vs 6 units you are only risking 1/3 of the BR but are making more than 1/3 of the profits

Thanks, I see I did my math wrong.

Here is another way to beat both craps books with flat bets only it is a Don't system called Hat trick

So I have posted

1 Hitman (pass and Don't flat bet system)
2 33 Special that is a Pass only system (max of 3 unit bets)
3 Hat Trick (Don't Pass only flat bet system)


update on hitman I reworked the way it was written to clear some things up and also added the list of spots in the book 72 hours at the craps table where we accept the 1 unit loss in the 3 slot when I retested it the total units won droped 2 still made over 100 units for the two books together.

So now you have a pass only don't, pass only, and a system that does both. I just want to point out the lower BR that was needed to do this in craps vs Bac

Regarding the hitman that you have been playing live, have you kept a tab on the win/loss, or at least the approximate amount of units won since you started?

Frist I would like to thank you for taking the time to reply

I have posted this on this site and other sites a few times and I would even post my bet by bet plays and just like know there seems to be little in the way of feedback good or bad.


I use to play hitman everyday because I had 5 tables within 5 miles from me and what was even better was I past by them coming in from work so I was really only out time. but work has moved me so I am not that close. Now the nearest table is about an hour away. I play with a +2 -2 stop W or L So I would go play maybe 20min or so and be done for the day

Now due to the fact that I have to drive so far one must really ask from a stand point of time and gas is it worth it. I am hoping to be close to some tables again in a few weeks and can start play again every day or 5 out of 7 days anyway

I am up over 50 units playing this way. I use to keep an excel file of the W and L's but no one ever showed any intrest so I stoped taking the time to write it all down. That is why I am going back in the books now retesting them all and hope to within the week be able to give you a list of the shooters in Zumma that cost you with thet 12 in the 3 slot

I just want to make sure I wrote it in a clear way so everyone would be plaicing bets at the same time. The only issue where I could see people could get lost is that when the 12 comes in the one slot and we were betting on DP then we replace the bet. but that 12 also acted as a trigger for the other side to bet so for that one bet you have money on both sides of the table. (I play the two sides independent from each other

I tested this also on wincraps looking at 100 shooter groups and got great results there (as far as flat bets go)

I play at a place that gives me comps in cash along with free chips being mailed to me. just the comps in cash that you can track every day that you play has earned a chip fast enough to pay me back for the 12's and so the chips in the mail is just extra profit. There more action than 33 special or hat trick so I think it is the best for earning comps. I asked for progression ideas to build on this on another site and only got one reply

Here is a slight progression I have been working on using your selection system (for both triggers):

I have as session bankroll of 12 units, broken into 3 sets of 4 bets per table. I stay at a table until I am +2 or -4 (unless I reach a point where I am -2 or -3, then I play until I am +1 or hit a -4 loss). If I hit the +2 mark, I increase my individual bet size 50% and play another table until I am again +2 or -4. This way I can go +4,-4,+4,-4... all day, be at net zero wins vs losses, and still make a profit. For instance, assume I have a session bankroll of $120 broken into 3 tables of $40 each. I bet $10 using your selection until I win 2 bets and am at 60, or lose 4 bets for - 40. If I loose 4 bets, I start over at another table. If I had won, I bet $15 until I have won 2 bets again (now at +30), or loose four bets. Reguardless of what happens, I will start another table for $10 a bet.

Example: Win table 1 for 2 bets, +20. Win table 2 for 2 bets, +30 NET +50
Lose table 3 for 4 bets, -40. Net result I am +$10 ahead with same number of wins vs losses.

I would play until I am +8 bets for the day, or -12 bets for the day.

This is working well

then I asked a few questions and here was his reply

1) Yes, a +2 followed by a -4 would produce a loss that a +4 is needed to fully overcome. But over the long haul the increase in wins that a +2 followed by another (larger) +2 would generate makes up for the initial loss.

2) I have also seen a disproportionate number of expected +1s over -2s.
I can offer no reason for this.

3) I have not seen a lot of damage from the come-out 12s. I just ignore it as though it never happened and bet a Pass on the next decision hoping the cycle will continue.


I hope this helps

I agree that dice is easier to win at than bac. The dice is much less volatile due to the seven keeping the game more in balance. The seven can kill both pass and dp streaks so even better for the anti-streak style, hey hey.

I would like to give you my sincere thanks Elliot for posting this system. I have been playing the hitman everyday now for the past two weeks here in Vegas and it definitely works. I am finally winning instead of losing now. I have been using $5 units for testing purposes, but I am now confident to start using $100 chips. I play it slightly differently than you. I do not rebet the 12 no matter what position it is in. I just take it as a win or loss depending what the outcome is. I also just play for approximately 4 or 5 hours per day with no win or stop loss. I have not had a losing day yet. last night, I made 9 units. What is funny that the whole half side of the table I was on started following my bets because they were losing.

Toyoproxo... congrats, man! LOVE to see real world application of some of the systems discussed here...

Keep us up to date as you continue playing this...let us know it holds up!!!

And of course, Evo... thanks for sharing the system!

Have a question after re-reading the hitman pdf...

Not sure I'm following the betting progression...

after 1 loss, your minus -1... in the pdf, it says after 2 losses, your -1, then at the 3rd bet you are "breaking even"...

How do you stay -1 after 2 losses? and if your breaking even at bet 3 (which means you must be betting 2 units?), how can you have $120 bankroll split into 3 four unit sessions? (should be 2 $10 bets and 1 $20 bet?)

Thanks for your patience in helping me understand this I GUESS I'M ASKING WHAT IS THE 3 STEP PROGRESSION????

Originally Posted by audionut

Have a question after re-reading the hitman pdf...

Not sure I'm following the betting progression...

after 1 loss, your minus -1... in the pdf, it says after 2 losses, your -1, then at the 3rd bet you are "breaking even"...

How do you stay -1 after 2 losses? and if your breaking even at bet 3 (which means you must be betting 2 units?), how can you have $120 bankroll split into 3 four unit sessions? (should be 2 $10 bets and 1 $20 bet?)

Thanks for your patience in helping me understand this

The hitman is a flat betting system only. If you have a run of 1, you make one unit. A run of 2 costs you 2 units. Runs of three or more are break even. Hope this helps.