Thread: Are casinos allowed to pre-arrange the sequence of the shoes?

After going to Marina Bay Sands for 2 months, I noticed some irregularities in the way the dealers change their new shoes in the Baccarat game.

I remember in the old days, the dealer would open 8 brand new packs of cards in their original rank and suit orders, then opened them face up for the patrons to examine to make sure that there are no 2 cards are same in every pack. Then the dealer would shuffle the cards in front of the patrons before cutting it and then placing it in the shoe.

Nowadays in Singapore casinos, the Baccarat shoes are "pre-shuffled" somewhere else. When a new shoe is brought to the table, the dealer would not shuffle it anymore, it will be cut by a patron and then placed in the electronic shoe.

I find that this new practice has given the casinos additional advantage over the patrons, because it gives the mathematicians / programmers a chance to pre-arrange the sequence of the shoes, hence pre-determine the outcome. This possible manipulation makes Baccarat no longer a game of chance but a game of psychological warfare. I'm not saying that the casinos would definitely take advantage of the patrons, but why give them a chance to do so, especially when hundreds of millions of dollars are involved? I know that if I can pre-arrange the shoes I can bankrupt the casinos.

I've heard that the Baccarat shoes of Marina Bay Sands are "pre-shuffled" in Japan and flown to Singapore, I wonder why? I have no idea where Resort World Sentosa gets their shoes prepared.

I'm wondering how the casinos in Vegas, Macau and London...etc change their new shoes? Any comments?

newplayer

Originally Posted by newplayer

I've heard that the Baccarat shoes of Marina Bay Sands are "pre-shuffled" in Japan and flown to Singapore, I wonder why? I have no idea where Resort World Sentosa gets their shoes prepared.

newplayer

its an urban legend...

try prearranging the cards in your favour and cut the deck randomly twice before burning the number of cards as the casino practises, you will yield a very different result....

Any casino attempting to remove the randomness in the game is itself burning their own bridge as sooner than later somebody will figure out a pattern.

The only changes that I have noticed is them increasing the table minimum limit to dissuade marty players...

Originally Posted by newplayer

I'm not saying that the casinos would definitely take advantage of the patrons, but why give them a chance to do so, especially when hundreds of millions of dollars are involved? I know that if I can pre-arrange the shoes I can bankrupt the casinos.

Yes they would, given half a chance. Don't know whjy they would be pre-shuffled in Japan, but it is a disgusting procedure and twice as bad as what happens at Sky City Adelaide where the cards are not laid out at the any stage of the day or night. Where MONEY is involved, trust nobody or nothing.

Originally Posted by Edwincheng

its an urban legend...

try prearranging the cards in your favour and cut the deck randomly twice before burning the number of cards as the casino practises, you will yield a very different result....

thats true but by not showing the players that there are no same cards in same deck of cards means that the casinos can remove and add cards that might give the casino even more edge. Or mess up the mathametics for a system users.

I hope that casino joint was local. as in NOT ac or vegas.

I suppose the best thing you can do after "figuring out" your system is, figuring out how to gamble hidden so they dont do stupid sh*t like this.

Man, this is getting me pumped up to do my zumma600.
I've done 12 shoes so far, GOD this will be forever.

Originally Posted by 500

I hope that casino joint was local. as in NOT ac or vegas.

I suppose the best thing you can do after "figuring out" your system is, figuring out how to gamble hidden so they dont do stupid sh*t like this.

Man, this is getting me pumped up to do my zumma600.
I've done 12 shoes so far, GOD this will be forever.

Wasn't in the States, they could have simply told me not to come back. You can't gamble hidden, when you buy-in for certain amounts you are tracked, ditto when you cash out just enough to avoid making the required tax declaration. They are counting the chips remaining in the tray after every shoe. There is only so much you can do, only so few you will trust to go to the cage for you, for a while I wasn't buying in at all, I simply used the chips I took home each night.

Originally Posted by Egalite

There is only so much you can do, only so few you will trust to go to the cage for you, for a while I wasn't buying in at all, I simply used the chips I took home each night.

If I plan to win $4,000(profit) from a casino in one day and do this every month, do you think the casinos will notice me?

so...
make 4,000 in one day, come back next month and repeat.

Of course. If you don't want to be noticed, perhaps give some chips to friends to cash on your behalf, but you only be able to get away with that for a short while. But hey you have to win it first.

I see.
I was just testing how badly the casino would track and remember a player.

Originally Posted by 500

I see.
I was just testing how badly the casino would track and remember a player.

I knew a BJ card counter, they told him "we have got our eye on you", and proceeded to tell him how much he was up in the last 12 months, it they were only a few hundred out as the guy had made over 100k profit. The fact they were so close, floored him, because he thought he was under the radar. It is their job to track winners and they generally are good at their job. If you get to know the regular players, you can sometimes intercept them before they buy-in and do a swap chips for cash.

I have no idea about other casinos but right at the one that I am playing, I have personally tracked them on several occasions and did not notice anything irregularity. True we may not be able to account for the undisclosed deck but never have I encountered any additional cards on those dealt, ie 33 kings or 9 ace spades.

It may be possible for a casino to manipulate a certain deck within the shoe to display a certain desired outcome but I do not see any significant advantage for the casino as such practice would be bad for business.

No casino should fear winners and the only fear is the winner not coming back to donate their earlier winnings....

Originally Posted by Edwincheng

I have no idea about other casinos but right at the one that I am playing, I have personally tracked them on several occasions and did not notice anything irregularity. True we may not be able to account for the undisclosed deck but never have I encountered any additional cards on those dealt, ie 33 kings or 9 ace spades.

It may be possible for a casino to manipulate a certain deck within the shoe to display a certain desired outcome but I do not see any significant advantage for the casino as such practice would be bad for business.

No casino should fear winners and the only fear is the winner not coming back to donate their earlier winnings....

Casinos won't fear a winner. However it is different when you have somebody wining a significant amount on a daily basis, and the wins simply continue and to rub salt into their wounds, there was no-buy involved. If you want to take down an individual player, you will do whatever is necessary, then return things to normality. There is a big difference how casinos view and treat "locals versus visitors".

It wasn't is the first time I felt this casino targeted me. You kinda of learn the ropes and wise up real fast.

its a happy worry

There is still some preshuffling to a certain pattern as you can different B/P patterns trails at various tables. The cutting of thr deck may change this into a long streak of Bankers or players in the beginning of the shoe.

Compared Marina bay sands and macau Venetian, I noted that in singapore, they have removed most of the small cards such as aces and 2s. Just personal opinion

That is also an urban legend.

By saying that a casino would prearrange a shoe or remove/insert certain cards to gain an advantage, we are also saying that card counting works.

I am not saying that it doesn't but definitely they must feel pretty confident that it doesn't to provide papers for us to track.

Card counting in baccarat remains a mystery like the yeti and lochness monster and I hope for all our sake it remains so, for the day it is made public then we will give them a reason to really play us blind by removing the tracking papers and mandating the shuffle master.

Until then, we already have enough challenges designing a winning system so let's not worry ourselves silly by these paranoid myths.

Originally Posted by Edwincheng

its an urban legend...

try prearranging the cards in your favour and cut the deck randomly twice before burning the number of cards as the casino practises, you will yield a very different result....

Any casino attempting to remove the randomness in the game is itself burning their own bridge as sooner than later somebody will figure out a pattern.

The only changes that I have noticed is them increasing the table minimum limit to dissuade marty players...

Cutting the cards once or even twice and burning between 1-10 cards before dealing has very little effects on the deck orchestration.

They can divide the shoe into 4 clusters, each cluster consists of 2 sections, the leading sectin is the "neutralising section" which will neutralise any amount of burnning cards and lead to the same beginning of the "orchestration section".

The "orchestration sections" are to counter any system players (appeared trendy) or trend players (appeared choppy).

From your quick response to defend the casinos, it makes me wonder if you are working for the casinos to gather intelligence from this Forum.

Dude u r real paranoid

Originally Posted by 500

If I plan to win $4,000(profit) from a casino in one day and do this every month, do you think the casinos will notice me?

so...
make 4,000 in one day, come back next month and repeat.

some win 40,000 so it doesn't matter.
some lost 400,000 also
all is 50% win and 50% lose,you can win 4000 you also can lose 4000
casino meet win/lose,win /lose everyday
can you plan to lose $4,000? I will buy your losing system.
How old are you?

haha. now you pissed of fauzy.

it doesnt matter. they can preshuffle all they want to whatever outcome they want, i see no advantage. $4,000? nah. casinos wouldnt mind that. casino's real worries are if at a given month, there would be more winners than losers overall. in situations like that, they would end up using "their own money" for pay off. they worry about low player turn out. in general casinos survive by letting the losers pay the winners. they keep the change. so by sheer numbers/customers they survive, plus the math guarantees profit because of the said number of customers. you wanna take the casino down? stop the customers from playing. they will be closed sooner than you think. so in a sense it is wrong to say you "won" off the casino on a given day, someone at another table lost and paid you, one wins at another's expense.

I wouldn't trust any electronic machines shuffling! Only shuffle by hand. The problem is on all cards tables. The eletronic chip shuffle put cards so that the dealer has adventage on BJ. Before BJ dealer busted ca. 28 times in 100 hands, now hardly 10-15 times.
Even worse it is on roulette tables! The ball has a magnet and the pockets are metal! The eye in the sky can push a button to activate pocket which one he wants and the ball falls often in the desired pocket. You can see plexy glass around the wheel not to get the ball in players hands. Friend of my did an experiment with his magnet and falling ball and it got reacted to the ball! The security took him immediately out of the casino (Canada).
Hermes

Originally Posted by hermes

Even worse it is on roulette tables! The ball has a magnet and the pockets are metal! The eye in the sky can push a button to activate pocket which one he wants and the ball falls often in the desired pocket.
Hermes

So, how does the "eye in the sky" figure out who is going to win and who is going to lose?

AD

With different people playing differently and erratically, most often, exactly how would the casino "orchestrate" any shoe and against whom, hey hey?

Originally Posted by soxfan

With different people playing differently and erratically, most often, exactly how would the casino "orchestrate" any shoe and against whom, hey hey?

90% of Baccarat players either bet "follow" or "banker only", it is my opinion they orchestrated the decks on six tables, because they didn't know were I would sit. In fact changing tables three times made no difference, scanning the display boards confirmed my suspicions, didn't matter if the other 10% players would have won, they probably get that back at a later date. The were gunning for the player who had consistently won just over ^^^^^ per day during the course of the last six days. By the way, all six tables were spewing the same trend the following day.

Casino orchestration, I did pose the question at the time, you can read it here. The post has details of the very remarkable PLAYER shoe, were the Banker only won 11 hands in a 8 deck game. In a nut shell the casino went too far. hey hey...

I guess its "possible" you could get only 11 bankers in a shoe, but not very "probable". Makes more sense like you said that they had a problem, you, and decided to take care of it.

Anybody else ever witnessed a shoe that only produced 11 BANKER?

So far, I've never witnessed 11 bankers in one shoe.

Originally Posted by Egalite

Anybody else ever witnessed a shoe that only produced 11 BANKERS? In a nut shell the casino went too far. hey hey...

No, can't say that I have but I'd love to see one for sure.

That sounds like a trender's dream shoe! 50+ Player hands and no matter how you arrange the 11 Banker hands, it can't be a loser.

AD

Originally Posted by confusedgambler

I guess its "possible" you could get only 11 bankers in a shoe, but not very "probable". Makes more sense like you said that they had a problem, you, and decided to take care of it.

It was an accumulation of things, such as senior managers (whom are never seen on the casino floor) watching me from afar from day 4. Suits watching and writing things down on clip boards, somebody told me it was my bets (they obviously weren't acquainted with the Fibonacci. Security standing right behind me while I was seated at the table, talking about me, while I'd mumble "fuck em" to my playing buddy and standing up and smirking and laughing at them between shoes. They were out to intimidate me and I wasn't having it, so I rubbed it in.

One time they followed us to the first floor, staying real close, we sat down and they would get on their radios and say, "they are sitting at the Bar". It was all in your face stuff and deliberate wind up" so long as I didn't misbehave, they couldn't eject or ban me.

This would never happen State-Side or in the UK. And it all came about because my winnings were surpassing their unwritten threshold criteria for a "local" on a daily basis. The "nil buy-in'" made it kinda hard for them to track my winnings other than monitoring the tray, because I didn't always cash out the lot, it had to be stopped, by any means necessary.

I think the shoe details indicate something underhand might have been going on, that in itself should be enough to always maintain your wits about you. I've played around with 6 decks minus picture cards, and also tried re-ranking picture cards as Ace, two's and three's and haven't been able to produce a shoe like that, so what exactly happened remains a mystery, other than their tray got repeatedly clean out on that shoe.

I wasn't there myself, I was Holidaying on casino money, I received a text from my playing buddy and still didn't believe it. When I got back, more than one casino regular confirmed the text. Basically you can't trust casino's, nor for that matter Government Inspectors that are seen socialising with the top echelon of these establishments.

Originally Posted by Egalite

90% of Baccarat players either bet "follow" or "banker only", they orchestrated the six tables against me, because they didn't know were I would sit. In fact changing tables three times made no difference, scanning the score boards confirmed my suspicions, didn't matter if the other 10% players would have won, they probably get that back at a later date. The were gunning for the player who had consistently won just over $10,000 per day during the course of the last six days.

Casino orchestration, I did pose the question at the time, you can read it here. The post has details of the very remarkable PLAYER shoe, were the Banker only won 11 hands in a 8 deck game.

Anybody else ever witnessed a shoe that only produced 11 BANKERS? In a nut shell the casino went too far. hey hey...

Imspirit has run 100 000 RNG sheos, I myself had another 100 000 RNG shoes, and the least amount of bankers in one shoe was around 19 I think.

Very simple pilot! There where are the least bets (chips) on the table. Eg. if not many zero covers zero comes often.
Hermes