System 40: Ellis Clifton Davis

[garnabby]

Sys40. 40 straight wins? hmm. Sure will be looking out for this one.

I don't think so, lol! Not necessary to see system #1,761 from a moron who thinks that he's some sort of an "Edison" who just has to try something 2,000 times to get it right.

But more like another 40 straight losers from Beaten by The Clowns (BTC). I mean, only clown-material would continue to believe such an obviously-fake (and completely-undefended) "autobiography" with a not-so-fake price-tag.

Anyone who "still believes", for whichever desperate reason(s), including at least one "OLD sillE" who thinks he ever was getting away with anything here or there... will never end up with more than even a single post/reply, in effect re-stating (over and over) just how little they care about this game, how much time and money they've thusly "wasted", and how creepy the "high seas" of the internet can still be.

Gotta "love" him in a way, though... as the "gift which just keeps giving" the rest of us a good, solid laugh and night's sleep.

[Ellis]

Garnabby, as all here know, you are completely full of it, not worth reading, not worth replying to and a complete disgrace to this forum. Why don't you do something useful and post a trip report as I am about to do - again? You know, put your money where your big mouth is.

[daviddwilson]

\

Yes, the shoe started in the red but this is normal for Sys 40 because you are building up to your largest bet which sooner or later has about a 100% win rate.

A stop loss of -15 or so is appropriate for the betting aggression I used but you seldom hit that. Also a +20 stop win is good.

Your highest bet is usually 5 or 6 but I've won many shoes with a high bet of 8.

It is important to play within your comfort range.

It would be good if you put your bets in red at plays 14, 20 and 30. This is your prog within a prog.


____________________
watch movies online




Note that I went to a flat bet of 2 in the ZZ at the top of col 2 after winning a 1,1 and also in the long straight run at the top of col 3 after a winning 3 bet. This is optional and AGAIN should only be done in a streaky game.

Another trick of the trade in VERY choppy shoes is to bet a 3 stays 3 and a 4 stays 4 and never go on a straight run.

The more you play it the better you do. Recognize that I did not win 40 straight on my first day of playing this. But I worked my way up to it pretty quick. Just ALWAYS be aware of what shoe type/ table type you are playing. That is the secret of Baccarat.

Holy Grail? No, but you can see it from here!

Just remember, you are out to win, not to kill. Don't get greedy.

Hey DAK, thanks but I can't check it with these old eyes. Good try though. If we could only enlarge that somehow. We need you young computer buffs to show off a little.

[grey]

some questions on this system 40.

Is the culprit constantly changing based on the constantly changing SAP count during the shoe?

What about 5s, 6s, 7s... Do we count these?

How about ties? Does a tie affect Rule 1, or how we count the hands before the ties?

I tried this method and lost earlier. 2s kept coming up. When the 1st s came I bet opposite, then the 2nd s appear and it repeats. 3s has the lowest count.

Do we flat bet, or use any progression?

What is the stop loss and win limit?

What is the correct way to use system 40 on this shoe?

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[Ellis]

some questions on this system 40.

Pretty good questions!

Is the culprit constantly changing based on the constantly changing SAP count during the shoe?

Theoretically yes, but it usually either never changes (a real good shoe like yours below) or it only changes once or twice. We don't like shoes wherein the LC (culprit) keeps changing. And we don't like shoes where all events are tied for LC. On such shoes we simply try to get out with a win ASAP. We prefer choppy tables with high 1's for Sys 40.

What about 5s, 6s, 7s... Do we count these?

No, just 2s, 3s and 4s. If we counted 5 or mores they would always be LC until they occurred usually late in the shoe. That would kill the system.

However, having said that, I sometimes (very rarely) make 5s LC in a super chop situation where I haven't seen any 5s at that table. This is usually brand new cards early in the morning after the card prep.

How about ties? Does a tie affect Rule 1, or how we count the hands before the ties?

You play as if the tie hand never occurred. You don't even record them. That way you aren't tempted to bet them. Ties are the worst bet in the casino and the mark of a pure amateur.

I tried this method and lost earlier. 2s kept coming up. When the 1st s came I bet opposite, then the 2nd s appear and it repeats. 3s has the lowest count.

You only lost because you did not yet know what you were doing. Playing Sys 40 correctly it would be impossible to lose such a shoe with high 2s and 3's culprit.

Betting a simple 123 on opposites, you win 1 unit on every 1 and 1 unit on every 2. When you lose your 1,2 you would bet your 3 on repeat which you would usually win since 3s are LC meaning that most 3s are going to 4.

Or you could play it 2 Hi by making your repeat bet a 1 rather than a 3 and if you lose that 1 OTR bet, next time you go OTR (on the run) bet 2 and so forth. This is exactly how sys 40 beat 40 shoes in a row, You are simply betting that sooner or later there will be a 4 and there always will be with 3s LC.

Do we flat bet, or use any progression?

Flat betting usually works fine with sys 40 but for that same reason a prog has very low risk. Starting out and until you know what you are doing, play a 1,2 as described above. Then move up to a 123. Most play 40 U1D2M2.
That is up 1 when you lose, down 2 when you win and always bet 2 after 1 win or lose.
At a good choppy table where you have been consistently winning, consider moving up to U1D2 M3 B2. You base at 2 instead of 1 and you have a mandatory 3 instead of 2.

I usually play a 345 with 5 my highest bet. (If I lose the 5 I start the prog over). But I only play 40 in chop favorable shoes with high 1's (more than 1 every 4 plays). This gives you some spectacular shoes at almost no risk. My high shoe last trip was +47 and I averaged over +20.

System 40 can beat almost any shoe but you are better off with a streak system at a streaky table. That, I could teach you on my own forum.

What is the stop loss and win limit?

Played 2 Hi per above make your stop win +10; Stop loss -4
Played U1D2M2 make it +20; Stop loss -8
Played U1D2 M3 B2 make it +30. Stop loss -10.

Once you get to +16, don't make a bet that could take you below +1.

Play decade cash mgt in the last col (20 play cols.) Don't make a bet that could take you out of the decade you are in. For instance, if your score is between 20 and 30 when you enter the last col. don't make a bet that could take you below +20. Quit!

Also note: with 2's LC stay on all runs until you lose. with 3s or 4s LC stay on runs for only one winning play uless you are seeing lots of long runs.

What is the correct way to use system 40 on this shoe?

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OK, 3s are LC. I played it with a simple 123 neg.prog. 3 was my highest bet and if I lost a 3 I went back to 1. A good stop win for a 123 prog is 15. The reason I wasn't more aggressive is because this shoe is very short in 1's with only 7 1's in 48 plays vs a norm of 12. Nevertheless, starting with a 1 bet on Bank at play 2 and making my OTR bets 3, I easily hit +15 at play 30 where I would have quit. Had you been foolish enough to go on from there you would have finished the shoe at play 48 with +5.

All I did was bet a 1,2 on opposites and when I lost the 1,2 I bet 3 on the 3 in a row. Win or lose I go right back to 1 on opposites.

My Player Advantage was 35% which directly compares to the 0.5% PA card counters strive to attain but never do.

My average bet size was 1.4 units with a highest bet of 3 units.

You don't need to bet big to win big! With such a low highest bet I could have played that shoe at $2000 units on most any table in the land and made $30,000 in a half hour with a 3 unit buy in.

Yes, System 40 is a great system but if you REALLY want to learn how to play Baccarat you need to learn System 40 Advanced (S40A) on my forum:
beatthecasino.com
S40A will get your win rate up to about 90% with very small losses. My worst shoe to date was -5. Also, you'll be the lowest bettor at the table but usually the biggest winner and very often the only winner.

[Ellis]

Oh and BTW. On Dec. 1st, our System 40 manual buy in price at beatthecasino.com is going up from $150 to $229 which includes one free month on the whole private forum to learn S40A. Additional months are still $50. A lifetime membership is still $500. And all monthly subscribers are given lifetime membership after a year.

Oh, and BTW, due to popular demand, we reposted most of the Hollywood shoes on our public forum in spite of the complaints of one of the members here, whom, it seems, does not speak for the majority here. They are there for all to see. And anyone who thinks we somehow cheated is just too stupid for me to be concerned with. Our buy ins and cash outs are a permanent casino record. Also, anyone of normal intelligence studying our shoes knows we didn't cheat. I think some of you guys are too fixated on the many scam artists out there and I can't say I blame you.

[grey]

Mr Ellis, Thank you very much for such an detailed explanation.

I play the shoe again on paper with your system 40.

Following 1,2,3 neg progression.

The first letter is the result. Those in brackets are what I bet.

Those that says Repeat are following Rule 2.

I use 3s as LC.

The - or + numbers are the units won or lost.

The last number on each line is a running total units of profit or loss.

Am I playing it right?

P P(B-1) -1
B(B+2) B(P-1) 0
P(P+2) P(B-1) 1
B(B+2) 3
P(P-1) P(B-2) 0
B(B+3) B(P-1) 2
P(P+1) 3
B(B+1) B(P-1) 3
P(P+1) P(B-1) P(B-2) P(Repeat P+3) 4
B(Repeat P-1) 3
P(P+2) 5
B(B+1) B(P-1) 5
P(P+2) 7
B(B+1) B(P-1) 7
P(P+2) P(B-1) P(B-2) P(Repeat P+3) 9
B(Repeat P-1) B(P-2) 6
P(P+3) P(B-1) P(B-2) 6
B(Repeat P-3) B(P-1) B(P-2) B(Repeat B+3) B(Repeat B+1) 4
P(Stop no bet) P(B-1) P(B-2) 1
B(B+3) B(P-1) 3
P(P+2) 5
B(B+1) 6
P(P+1) P(B-1) P(B-2) 4
B(B+3) 7

[Ellis]

Ha, damned if I know but I'll give you all the bets to play 30 and you can check yourself.

01 no bet
02 1b
03 2b
04 1p
05 2p
06 1b
o7 2b
o8 1p
09 1b
10 2b
11 1p
12 2p
13 1b
14 1p
15 2p
16 1b
17 2b
18 3p
19 1b
20 1p
21 1b
22 1p
23 2p
24 1b
25 1p
26 2p
27 1b
28 2b
29 3p
30 1b Quit with score of +15

[grey]

Mr Ellis, thank you very much.

If I follow your method properly, at hand 29, my profits would have been 13 units.

I lost because I played wrongly.

[grey]

updated and made some corrections to post #217

[] is Mr Ellis bets
() is what I practise on paper.
123 neg progression.
the - and + numbers inside () are the unit bets I practise on paper. + is win, - is loss.
last number on each line is the running profit and loss units
at hand 29 profit is 13
at the last hand of the shoe, profit is 11

* are my bets which I found are different from Mr Ellis. Did I play wrongly at these 2 hands?
at hand 20, Mr Ellis bet is 1p. But I lost hand 19, so I bet 2 units at hand 20.
at hand 30, Mr Ellis bet is 1b. I followed the 3s to repeat twice, so at hand 30 my bet is P, having 1 unit loss at hand 29, my bet at hand 30 was 2 units.

P[01 no bet] P[02 1b](B-1) -1
B[03 2b](B+2) B[04 1p](P-1) 0
P[05 2p](P+2) P[06 1b](B-1) 1
B[07 2b](B+2) 3
P[08 1p](P+1) P[09 1b](B-1) 3
B[10 2b](B+2) B[11 1p](P-1) 4
P[12 2p](P+2) 6
B[13 1b](B+1) B[14 1p](P-1) 6
P[15 2p](P+2) P[16 1b](B-1) P[17 2b](B-2) P[18 3p](Repeat P+3) 8
B[19 1p](Repeat P-1) 7
P[20 1p](*P+2) 9
B[21 1b](B+1) B[22 1p](P-1) 9
P[23 1p](P+2) 11
B[24 1b](B+1) B[25 1p](P-1) 11
P[26 2p](P+2) P[27 1b](B-1) P[28 2b](B-2) P[29 3p](Repeat P+3) 13
B[30 1b](*Repeat P-1) B(P-2) 10
P(P+3) P(B-1) P(B-2) 10
B(Repeat P-3) B(P-1) B(P-2) B(Repeat B+3) B(Repeat B+1) 8
P(Stop no bet) P(B-1) P(B-2) 7
B(B+3) B(P-1) 7
P(P+2) 9
B(B+1) 10
P(P+1) P(B-1) P(B-2) 8
B(B+3) 11

[grey]

When there is a >4s, do we count it as part of 4s or ignore it?

When the SAP count of 2s and 3s are the same and there are no 4s, do we bet opposite or repeat when a 2s or 3s appears?

If the last few hands is a streak from 2s becoming 3s,4s,5s,6s... do we give it a count at each turn?

How do we bet or count a new shoe that starts with a streak of 6s?

I just encountered a shoe that starts with PPPPPPTPPPP

[Archer]

Yes, System 40 is a great system but if you REALLY want to learn how to play Baccarat you need to learn System 40 Advanced (S40A) on my forum:
beatthecasino.com
S40A will get your win rate up to about 90% with very small losses. My worst shoe to date was -5. Also, you'll be the lowest bettor at the table but usually the biggest winner and very often the only winner.

Well, back selling your junk again Ellis? I thought you were never coming back after everyone here exposed you for what you are - a con man.

Grey, System 40 has been thoroughly tested and it has shown to be no better than random bet placement. It is okay for a guess system but don't expect it to work. As Ellis himself says in his post it works on certain shoes and not on others so basically half the time it works and half the time it doesn't. You got to guess a lot.

Ellis, your members tell me that you don't even have a completed System 40 Advanced and there is a lot of complaints over there on your phony site. So why are you trying to get people to send you money for a method that does not even exist?

Archer

[takethewin]

archer, there's some of us that enjoy ellis's posts, and feel like we learn from his experiences, why do you have to try to ruin it for us? why don't you just use the ignore button, or at least give it a break for awhile, we all know you don't believe in his methods, you don't have to tell us repeatedly. i left because of garnabby, now i come back, and here you are, same 'ol boring crap.

[NaturalNines]

archer, there's some of us that enjoy ellis's posts, and feel like we learn from his experiences, why do you have to try to ruin it for us? why don't you just use the ignore button, or at least give it a break for awhile, we all know you don't believe in his methods, you don't have to tell us repeatedly. i left because of garnabby, now i come back, and here you are, same 'ol boring crap.

You know what i'm tired of Ellis' and Co's crap and haven't voiced it until now.

I don't know if you're a shill or not but i don't care for anyone that cares for Ellis' crap and constant advertisement.

How can you possibly defend his crap and mutlitude of methods. Heads i win, tails you lose. DO YOU SEE?

Shills DO NOT RESPOND, i'm done with this subject.

[pitty1]

I think Archer has a valid debate here..I mean it's good to be informed that King elsi has yet to develop a complete s40a..based on his system histories.. it's up to his paying members to tweek his strategies..Look at grey..u see how it's easy to flub a shoe..try that with real money..or better still fork king elsi 500.00..thats really whats he's looking for..Archer makes more sense than garnny any day..Elsi is the one making the claim here he should prove it..whats wrong with that?
Shoe for King Elsi...
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[livegaming]

archer, there's some of us that enjoy ellis's posts, and feel like we learn from his experiences, why do you have to try to ruin it for us? why don't you just use the ignore button, or at least give it a break for awhile, we all know you don't believe in his methods, you don't have to tell us repeatedly. i left because of garnabby, now i come back, and here you are, same 'ol boring crap.

you dont have to leave the forum, i suggest you to push that ignore button on archer's or anyone you dont like in this forum

you enjoy great story? Read a novel

you enjoy winning gambling story? Watch phil ivey on youtube its free

or do you enjoy the reality? Read wizzard of odds

you enjoy system? read baccarat discussions, many systems are free there, and guess what? All are equally sucks

experienced or skill has nothing to do with baccarat, all you have to do is never lose your head when youre losing and you'll be fine

everyone has right to share his/her opinion, if you dont like it, ignore it, so why dont you push that little ignore button first?

[takethewin]

i'm here to learn more about baccarat strategy than i already know. i appreciate anyone that gives me new ideas, so far, it has not cost me one dime. i just get tired of the childish behaviour, it's ok to voice your opinion, but damn, over and over again...it's also hard to ignore one person when it effects almost everyones response to the thread. if it's a thread started by or to someone and it doesn't concern you and you don't have anything good to contribute, stay out of it, or at least quit repeating the same old negative bs.

[ADulay]

Shoe for King Elsi...
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B ............

Basic System 40 pulled a very nice +34 out of that shoe.

Maverick "only" got a +13.

I'd love to see that shoe in my local casino!

AD

[grey]

I am a neutral party to the eternal war between some of you here.

I have played more than 100 shoes recently. Not a very big player, but I have won 4 digits and lost 4 digits in some shoes.

For the past few days, before I post in this thread, I was on a very bad run of consecutive 11 straight loss. I also lost in the shoe I posted above.

In all fairness, after following Ellis responses to my few posts above, I won 17 units for my next shoe using 123 neg prog, then 20 units after the next using flat bets. It may be 2 lucky shoes in the short run, but the feeling of winning 2 consecutive shoes using a different method after losing 11 straight is priceless.

And, I don't even have complete grasp of the method yet, look at my additional questions in post #221.

In my losses, I learnt that I often got killed by dragons and large bets.

System 40 rule 1 is useful for chops and rule 2 is good for streaks. With this method, I start playing in hand 2 and can win in both chops and streaks.

[livegaming]

i'm here to learn more about baccarat strategy than i already know. i appreciate anyone that gives me new ideas, so far, it has not cost me one dime. i just get tired of the childish behaviour, it's ok to voice your opinion, but damn, over and over again...it's also hard to ignore one person when it effects almost everyones response to the thread. if it's a thread started by or to someone and it doesn't concern you and you don't have anything good to contribute, stay out of it, or at least quit repeating the same old negative bs.

off course we repeating the same old negative bs over and over again, its because they also repeating selling junk over and over again

look, if you have a real winning system, i have no problem for you to sell it, the problem is, all system are the same, none of them is guarantee winner, they sell it based on false information, if they win, they'll say they win more, if they lose, they'll say they lose less than the real losses, why? Simply because they do the advertising

is this the kind of product that can be classified as good product? Or junk?

What is the different between this product with other junk products on the market? None!

If i said that i can make your money multiplied by 2 everymonth for the rest of your life by investing it on stockmarket, and i charged you only 100$ per month for this services, will you believe it? And if someone want to buy it, are you keep silence or warn them not to buy it?

Actually you already have all the information about baccarat, without reading this you can win, and i put a deep sympathy to those who buy this system eventhough they know all system will fail if they didnt keep their cool when theyre losing, they always try to look for the holy grail, which will never be existed

the only thing you should know about baccarat is, banker has the slightest odd, progression and stop loss

i never know do the system sellers really win or not or are they really playing using the system, but if they can win and so you can even without using his system (all system are equally good) , and if they lose you will also lose even without using his system (all system are equally bad)

so what should you do about it? Find the answer and maybe, just maybe you'll come up a winner

just my opinion.

[pitty1]

AD,Yes that was a rather simple OTB4L shoe..and no it does not happen all the time..Did not want to dirty elsi shorts on his triumphant return..Whos next to come back? garnnybaby?

[Egalite]

Don't know what bugs me more, the overly nice sensitive crowd. Casinos, casino staff and regular gambling is not a nice activity, unless you are losing and then the casinos will love you to death, or the trolls, shills and sellers. This is a gambling site, an activity usually restricted to adults, you need a thick skin to battle casinos, gambling forums are a good place to discover how strong or weak your mindset is.

[IMS]

Don't know what bugs me more, the overly nice sensitive crowd. Casinos, casino staff and regular gambling is not a nice activity, unless you are losing and then the casinos will love you to death, or the trolls, shills and sellers. This is a gambling site, an activity usually restricted to adults, you need a thick skin to battle casinos, gambling forums are a good place to discover how strong or weak your mindset is.

Totally true.

There will always be the overly nice sensitive crowd ... that's how scammers like Ellis keep going, since they are so easy to con. They're so idiotic that they can't appreciate genuine warnings that the rest of us are trying to offer in hopes of saving them some grief.

So, I say, let them be conned and let them learn the hard way. It usually takes that to realize the truth about these scammers anyway.

Then one day they'll be the ones trying to warn the next crowd that's overly nice sensitive, and they'll realize how truly futile it is.

All's good.

[Archer]

Basic System 40 pulled a very nice +34 out of that shoe.Maverick only got a +13. I'd love to see that shoe in my local casino!AD

Yes, played both ways I get about the same so I guess we are playing the same way.

I am quite sure that shoe is not all that rare and you will see plenty like it. The two distinct features are: 1) no more than 3 in a row except at the end and 2) nice groupings of the 1's. First half the 1's chopped; 2nd half the A2's stayed on same side!

But your point is?

Any trend method like MU and S40 will win shoes like this. gr8player would clean up on this shoe. So does my losing trend method (see below).

http://d.imagehost.org/0818/pitty_1_NOV_10.jpg

The fact that both methods played this shoe differently just shows that some methods work on some shoes but fail on others.

The problem with MU and S40 are the switch rules. When the switch rules work you win when they don't you lose. Mechanically played these methods lose overall (mine included). So what's left is guessing.

Forget purchasing S40A. It doesn't exist! Ellis will get your money and then make changes to it every week until he gets all your money then he will come up with a whole different method! Do you really want to pay Mark (and Andy ?) $1,000.00 for a guessing trend game?

Ellis falls back on table selection and the totally ridiculous assumption that live shoes are different than simulations which has been proven time and time again to be baloney! So if you lose it is your fault.

Anyway for grey's and others sake let's just understand that these trend methods are all essentially the same.

Disparity - when equal without a lot of long runs play straight down on either side and win. When unequal with 1's n the same side play straight down on the dominant side and win.

Choppy - play disparity as above.

Streaky - play FLD.

see pitty 1 shoe? It's consistent so it is a shoe that can't lose no matter what kind of trend game you play.

Archer

PS. Hey Andy, at least I post my shoes and how and why I play them.

[Ellis]

updated and made some corrections to post #217

[] is Mr Ellis bets
() is what I practise on paper.
123 neg progression.
the - and + numbers inside () are the unit bets I practise on paper. + is win, - is loss.
last number on each line is the running profit and loss units
at hand 29 profit is 13
at the last hand of the shoe, profit is 11

* are my bets which I found are different from Mr Ellis. Did I play wrongly at these 2 hands?
at hand 20, Mr Ellis bet is 1p. But I lost hand 19, so I bet 2 units at hand 20.
at hand 30, Mr Ellis bet is 1b. I followed the 3s to repeat twice, so at hand 30 my bet is P, having 1 unit loss at hand 29, my bet at hand 30 was 2 units.

P[01 no bet] P[02 1b](B-1) -1
B[03 2b](B+2) B[04 1p](P-1) 0
P[05 2p](P+2) P[06 1b](B-1) 1
B[07 2b](B+2) 3
P[08 1p](P+1) P[09 1b](B-1) 3
B[10 2b](B+2) B[11 1p](P-1) 4
P[12 2p](P+2) 6
B[13 1b](B+1) B[14 1p](P-1) 6
P[15 2p](P+2) P[16 1b](B-1) P[17 2b](B-2) P[18 3p](Repeat P+3) 8
B[19 1p](Repeat P-1) 7
P[20 1p](*P+2) 9
B[21 1b](B+1) B[22 1p](P-1) 9
P[23 1p](P+2) 11
B[24 1b](B+1) B[25 1p](P-1) 11
P[26 2p](P+2) P[27 1b](B-1) P[28 2b](B-2) P[29 3p](Repeat P+3) 13
B[30 1b](*Repeat P-1) B(P-2) 10
P(P+3) P(B-1) P(B-2) 10
B(Repeat P-3) B(P-1) B(P-2) B(Repeat B+3) B(Repeat B+1) 8
P(Stop no bet) P(B-1) P(B-2) 7
B(B+3) B(P-1) 7
P(P+2) 9
B(B+1) 10
P(P+1) P(B-1) P(B-2) 8
B(B+3) 11

You aren't making your OTR bets. YOU WIN hand 19 because you bet 3 on the run because 3s are LC so you bet OTR under ALL 3s. You win your 3 bet so you are back to 1 at play 20. I think you simply made that same mistake throughout.

Perhaps Archer could teach you better. Ha! What a complete waste of paper he is. That's why we kicked him off our forum. He thinks Baccarat is about arguing which is all he ever does. Now he's over here ruining YOUR forum. That's his thing. Eventually he'll ruin every thread on your forum because he thinks he's the king of Baccarat. Just can't play.

[takethewin]

"So, I say, let them be conned and let them learn the hard way. It usually takes that to realize the truth about these scammers anyway.

Then one day they'll be the ones trying to warn the next crowd that's overly nice sensitive, and they'll realize how truly futile it is."

IMS, i don't need anyone to "save" me "protect" me, i'm a big boy, i can make my own decisions...maybe you'd do better at warning players to just completely stay away from the casino's, thay way you might save us a 1000 or 2000 dollars a trip, you know those greedy scammer con artist casino's, all they want is our money. god knows none of us need any help with our game.

[Ellis]

The fact that both methods played this shoe differently just shows that some methods work on some shoes but fail on others.

Now there is a brilliant deduction.

[gr8player]

Archer, regarding your posted shoe example just above, I see that you won 14 units; good job, as usual. But, that said, I felt compelled to point some stats out to you regarding same:

Your progression:

62 units in play throughout the shoe;
Highest bet placed was 5 units (twice);
Highest drawdown was 12 units.
Finished at +14 units.

Flat-betting:

29 units in play throughout the shoe;
Highest bet placed (obviously) was 1 unit;
Highest drawdown was 2 units.
Finished at +7 units.

Let's not even mention the "Banker's commission" difference when employing progressions.

Let's talk about unit sizes. I think we'd easily agree that one could play a higher unit size while flat-betting than one could using a d'Alambert progression. And can do so, in most cases, with much less strain on their bankroll and their psche, and could utilize rather tight win goals because of the relative size of the units. Might those tight goals produce more shoe and/or session wins, asnd equally-tight, short losses?

I only ask these questions to provoke some thought on the subject. I wish not to deter anyone from playing their "preferred" way. I surely do not own the "keys to the kingdom", but I assure you that my notions are bourne from years of experience and experimentation.

I wish us all continued success.

[IMS]

"So, I say, let them be conned and let them learn the hard way. It usually takes that to realize the truth about these scammers anyway.

Then one day they'll be the ones trying to warn the next crowd that's overly nice sensitive, and they'll realize how truly futile it is."

IMS, i don't need anyone to "save" me "protect" me, i'm a big boy, i can make my own decisions...maybe you'd do better at warning players to just completely stay away from the casino's, thay way you might save us a 1000 or 2000 dollars a trip, you know those greedy scammer con artist casino's, all they want is our money. god knows none of us need any help with our game.

Spoken like someone who hasn't been conned by the likes of Ellis.

Go ahead - seek Ellis' "help."

After a few years of losing much more than 1000 or 2000 dollars a trip for following him, eventually you'll understand what the rest of us were trying to help you avoid.

But, no, you're a big boy ... figure it out yourself.

[IMS]

Perhaps Archer could teach you better. Ha! What a complete waste of paper he is. That's why we kicked him off our forum. He thinks Baccarat is about arguing which is all he ever does. Now he's over here ruining YOUR forum. That's his thing. Eventually he'll ruin every thread on your forum because he thinks he's the king of Baccarat. Just can't play.

In other words, anyone with half a brain is banned from Ellis' site.
They don't tolerate anyone who questions the hole-y words of Ellis there.