Thread: Working with Partners or Backers

I have read a few posts where people feel they were hurt by someone
they gave money to for the purpose of playing baccarat.
Most recently there are posts about The Goal. I don't know any of those people so I will not comment. However, it seems to me that we should all share some ideas and experiences about how to partner up with someone, or a team to organize a gambling venture.

Seven shooter, we need you. You are a team leader. How do you organize this?
Any Blackjack team players out there?

I have been involved with investment and business ventures, but this
is a little different,

What could Daytrader and TheGoal have done differently to avoid the
disagreements they are having now?

I think this thread is good idea...

well.. when comes to gambling.. or making easy money.. i think we can't think too well....."100% winning system" "if you come with me you will win for sure" "I will give you losing money back"

well... one thing... if they can win.. then why don't they do themselve?

I mean.. say you have job... would you give all the information or introduce all the friends to your company? they might take your job in the future...

and one more time.. i lost big money because this "professional baccarat" guy told me you will win 100% with me...

and not only he lost.. but he wasn't professional at all... well, if I do this with anybody.. first i will sit down with few people and talk and make some contract....
talk about risk and etc.. show how I play.. and how much winning you want etc...

One thing piss me off this guy was.. he kept playing when was way up.... i mean.. how much does he want to win? million?? i mean this guy was sooo not professional....

like thegoal guy.. you can tell way he talks and he did not show up to first day and how he acted to daytrader.. that's it.. that's how you treat your client??? forget.. this is business....

anyhow... this isn't really investment business or anything... stay away from anything like this

Well for one, try your best not to hook up with anybody who is a loon. Daytrader could teach us all a thing or two about that.

I never felt comfortable with the idea of being a partner with someone, even if they were a buddy. Money does strange things to people.

When it comes to Partners or Backers...U can't be more organized than the asian players.they got it down..the trust n loyalty thing..must be cultural..In USA ..u might get shot "stealing" another persons parking space.

loll the guy took my money was asian....

do not trust anybody... i mean... how can we trust this stuff right?

i mean this is gambling.... afterall.... this is not even mutual funds or any other investment... cash and no paper, can be gone in second....


again... if you they claim they win then.. i would throw $200-$300 and see how goes.. they should win regardless of bankroll right?

Teams are formed for several reasons:

1) Members have a real player advantage over the house and cooperate to maximize player e.v. by increasing the hands per hour rate. They sometimes collude with confederates to signal, "Big Players", into action at tables with ideal conditions;

2) Members are seasoned professionals at cheating the casino and team up to pull off organized grifts like past-posting scams or card-pinching ploys;

3) Occasionally hustlers will invite naive individuals to pool their money into a team bankroll and then deviously rip off the team contributors by surreptitiously siphoning the collective funds.

Team members can avoid getting scammed by always having an impartial third party present to monitor the action and also should break the bank after each session if trust is not implicit.

Lets try this scenario for discussion.

Someone you believe is an expert baccarat player, dice controller, poker star etc. comes to you,. They made millions gambling, but the lowest form of life, their financial advisor (are you with me Joker) , stole all of their money. They want you to give them $10,000 to start playing.

A) What type of financial arrangement would you make. Profit/loss sharing
arrangement, how many shoes or days would you agree to before cutting them off if losing, what target win would you have.

b) How could you protect your money from being stolen from you ?

Originally Posted by Profbac

Lets try this scenario for discussion.

Someone you believe is an expert baccarat player, dice controller, poker star etc. comes to you,. They made millions gambling, but the lowest form of life, their financial advisor (are you with me Joker) , stole all of their money. They want you to give them $10,000 to start playing.

A) What type of financial arrangement would you make. Profit/loss sharing
arrangement, how many shoes or days would you agree to before cutting them off if losing, what target win would you have.

b) How could you protect your money from being stolen from you ?

If this person really is an, "expert", then ask him how many units he requires to safely begin building the bank. If his strategy actually works, I don't see why he would need more than 50 starting units to double the bank. Offer a loan of $250 and instruct the expert to play $5 units. Tell him your cut of the profits is 50%. Also inform him that you will be present at each session of play to monitor the action.

A legitimate expert should be able to double the $250 within a reasonable amount of time. $250, $500, $1000, $2000, $4000, $8000, $16,000....

At this rate, I can't see why any expert would need an investor in the first place. A scammer, on the other hand, plays someone else's money and hopes for a run of good luck. He knows he will keep 50% of the profits and has nothing to lose. It's a free-roll.

Right, the story just doesn't wash. No true expert would ever be W/O money. His bankroll is his life. He would protect it at all cost. He needs no financial adviser and operates strictly on a cash basis.

If he is a true expert he wouldn't dream of investing his money in anything but himself. That would give him his highest ROI by a mile if he is a true expert.

On the other hand, if he is a loser, now the story makes perfect sense.

Ellis,

You are being harsh. I would advise anyone making money in gambling to take some of it and divrsify into non gambling ventures that provide another source of income. Having other income allows you to take the risks of gambling.

I am reading about poker champions. Fascinating differences out there.
Peter Harrington is a great example. (He is also a lot older than most )
Heavily into real estate. Peter Chan, restaurants.

Others like Helmuth developed an addiction to the craps table and
wound up moving back to his parents house.

Harrington and Chan do not need backers. So you are right to a large extent about losers in the larger sense.

Personally, I like being well diversified, and keeping my hand in the business world. As a middle aged family man with a mortgage, college payments etc. there is no way that I would put everything into gambling,
even though I treat it as a business.

I would work with backers and a team if it would allow me to leverage my abilities and work at a higher level. I haven't done it for a lot of reasons. But I do understand why a team could do better than one person working alone.

Sevenshooter, Ellis

I agree with you about controlling the money.
That is critical.

Doubling your money while risking only a 50 unit drawdown?
That brings in the subject of variance.
That is why blackjack teams were originally formed, to deal with the swings. Any partners or backers must have an agreement about what to expect, and how far down they are willing to go before pulling the plug.

This all will relate to the system being used. Flat betting or negative progression.


As a businessman I have been involved with promoting (or being pitched) numerous projects. First question is always "How much are
you putting in". If the answer is nothing or sweat equity or nothing
but I guarantee (beware, how good could the guarantee be)...
keep walking, money talks, bullshit walks.

Now lets try this. Mr expert says I will put up $10,000 , or $50,000
and I want an investor group to build up a $1million bank.
Now we can play several tables, and bet large when the time is right.

Is this more believable than the expert who has no money?
Of course it is.

How would you work with this situation?

All good points Profbac and you are certainly right for those skilled in investments. I was referring more to those who would need to trust a financial adviser. Lots of horror stories out there but an occasional good story. The investment world hasn't done that well lately and some of the biggest investment firms are also some of the biggest scammers. The govt. here has almost no control and is often part of the problem.

Also it depends largely on what we mean by an "expert". For instance, if our expert can achieve a 25% ROI on his play, why invest in anything other than himself?

On the other hand a top card counter achieving a 0.5% ROI, in my mind, might as well quit casinos and invest his bankroll wisely instead.

BTW, I took Garnabby's advice (Ha, the last thing you'd expect to hear from me) and posted under Ellis an 8 line innocuous polite post on BJinfo.com about my prerequisites for profitable insurance betting.

I was immediately banned for life! I also immediately got 2 BJ sales from two of their members. But I got a bunch of really humorous replies like:

It doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you play correctly.

Empirical data is meaningless.

Winning BJ casino exhibitions are magician tricks and meaningless.


When you think about it, this sets up the perfect scammer's paradise.

The scammer never has to play and demonstrate his wares.

The fact that they have no winners is meaningless emperical data. All are merely on the wrong side of the standard deviation. They aren't losers.

It's like freaking mass hypnosis. Can people no longer think for themselves?

Ellis,

Blackjack is your specialy, I have been out of it a very long time, and I was only a player. I followd S. Wongs book. What I do remember reading was that samples of 1 million hands had very wide variations in results.
Any expected ROI was only an average, and the std. deviations very large. Hence, the team approach trying to get to that positive average.

All the more reason to put some money away. OK, the bank if you don't like financial advisors. BTW, I agree with you about those gurus.
My brother in law is in that business. Most dishonest man I ever met.

Profbac, try as I might, I have never come up with a good team approach for Bac. The problem is that in Bac, team members cancel each other out. I have found no way around that.

BJ is a wholly different story. I ran 8 5 man table takeover teams in the Bahamas for two nights each at 2 casinos - a total of 4 nights. Many of the team members were newbies and could not control their laughter and table talk so we managed to get barred at both casinos but not before all 8 teams beat BOTH casinos.

I think this is the most lucrative team approach possible today. Each team member had a specific job at the table and was given a simple specific way to play. Each team needed only one qualified BJ player, the big money player at first base.

Also, this was absolutely the very best time of my life as it was for many of the players. In fact one of the team members died shortly afterward and I got a long letter from his wife thanking me for the best time of his life.

We stayed at DiviDivi Resort Nassau in the Great Houses right on the beach and ate all our meals at their best restaurant, rented sail boats and jet skies for all. Our team winnings paid for everything including a gigantic bar bill, airfare and hotel bill with a little left over.

If anyone is interested I'll tell you exactly how we did that.

Team Play

Originally Posted by Ellis

If anyone is interested I'll tell you exactly how we did that.

Skip it Ellis, i've already had my laugh for the day... news of "Dizzy Lizzy" coming to Kitchener this summer. (johno will know what i mean... http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/713840 .)

Never mind, let Garnabby teach you how to do it.

Originally Posted by Ellis

Never mind, let Garnabby teach you how to do it.

Too-busy, teaching myself, Ellis... with the new and old things which have actually been tried, and which work in the casinos of this era.

Yeah, yeah, I know, card values. Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by Ellis

Yeah, yeah, I know, card values. Good luck with that.

Ruling anything out is the hallmark of an amateur... especially the one thing which has ever been conclusively shown to be of any value for baccarat.

Much as i try to not waste also my own time/money/reputation, by doing the hard work first, i have seriously considered even yours, and that of the other "trending purists" and "make-up artists"... and thanks for the (unintended) help.

Originally Posted by garnabby

Ruling anything out is the hallmark of an amateur... especially the one thing which has ever been conclusively shown to be of any value for baccarat.

Garnabby, you made that up. The exact opposite is true. Scientific research is largely ruling things out until you arrive at the truth. Edison ruled out 2000 ways to make a light bulb before arriving at that which worked.

Card values have been explored by the best minds for 20 years before ruling them out as mostly inconsequential in Baccarat. They are strictly a BJ thing.

Originally Posted by garnabby

Much as i try to not waste also my own time/money/reputation, by doing the hard work first, i have seriously considered even yours, and that of the other "trending purists" and "make-up artists"... and thanks for the (unintended) help.

I'm guessing that what you are trying to say is that you do the hard work first before offering an opinion??? Is that close? Then why did you offer card values W/O first thoroughly exploring the history of that approach?

"make-up artists"??? Is that some sort of Canadian thing?

Any help I offer is intended.

In my opinion we are right back to biases or trends as the only workable approach but I'm open to any NEW ideas. I just don't like to see talent wasted on old rejected ideas.

Originally Posted by Ellis

Garnabby, you made that up. The exact opposite is true. Scientific research is largely ruling things out until you arrive at the truth. Edison ruled out 2000 ways to make a light bulb before arriving at that which worked.

Card values have been explored by the best minds for 20 years before ruling them out as mostly inconsequential in Baccarat. They are strictly a BJ thing.



I'm guessing that what you are trying to say is that you do the hard work first before offering an opinion??? Is that close? Then why did you offer card values W/O first thoroughly exploring the history of that approach?

"make-up artists"??? Is that some sort of Canadian thing?

Any help I offer is intended.

In my opinion we are right back to biases or trends as the only workable approach but I'm open to any NEW ideas. I just don't like to see talent wasted on old rejected ideas.

Ellis,

Most of Edison's attempts at producing simple electrical lighting involved trying the different metal-elements and the then-possible alloys of (for the filament, in a partial vacuum), and many did thusly produce light... so from there it was a matter only of IMPROVEMENTS UPON SOMETHING WHICH ALREADY SHOWED SIGNS OF SUCCESS.

On the other hand, and i rewrite from the other thread,

"You guys offer up nothing credible: no credentials; no historical accounts (other than that Arnold Synder's report about cheap scammers like you); no consistently-winning systems (to date); no hints of social elevation; no wealth; etc.

So, death and taxes aside, swear on your mother's grave that everything you have written is true... lol.

DARE YOU!!!"




P.S. Still waiting for even this! Or at least ADulay to spring to action to have Mike close another (good) thread, lol... like The card-values are inevitable. .

Originally Posted by garnabby

P.S. Still waiting for even this! Or at least ADulay to spring to action to have Mike close another (good) thread, lol.

Garn,

I see you lucked out and had Mike close that other thread where I answered all your stupid questions, but you couldn't find the time to reply.

So, how about it? I've answered your questions. How about you answering a few here?

Pretty soon Mike will realize the common denominator in all of the closed threads is YOU!

I'm still waiting for you to answer any question or post up any message where you've actually played a baccarat shoe, either real or imagined!!

How are you ever going to get that $5000 buy in back if you never play? Personally, I don't think you have the temperament to play the game and your actions and writing here in this forum are pretty conclusive proof.

You're living in a make believe world where only YOU have the secret (or will have it shortly, according to every other message you post) of how to play baccarat.

Personally, I hope you come up with the Holy Grail. I'd really get a kick out of you coming in here and telling everybody how you just killed the casino with "Garnabby's Grab" or whatever you'll call it.

Then you can explain it to everyone else and we'll all be happy.

That's pretty much why I come in here now, just to see the day when you figure it out and let us all know how you did it, just like you keep telling us.

AD (got any coherent answers?)

Hmm, just went back and checked when this thread started to fall apart. It was going along quite nicely, right up to message #16 when Garnabby poked his losing head into it and attempted to attack people again.

It was all downhill from there.

If Mike decides to close this thread (and he may as well as Garnabby has ruined it one more time) then it'll be on Garnabby's head.

Everybody go back and read this thread from message #1. All friendly and informative writing, right up until Garnabby starts in with his typical garbage.

I still think Garnabby needs a two week suspension or something. He's just killing the good threads.

AD

I'm not the one trying to sell anything, etc; or the one who pops up here and there (by chance, lol, like the other BTC-organizers,) trying to endorse the stuff of others, like thegeorgiahurricane found you tied in with, yourself.

On the other hand, YOUZE claim all, but fail to answer any of the serious or even non-serious questions... all for ridiculous amounts of money, and further shabby treatment. (And no business-licences, etc.)

And when even that nonsense fails, HERE WE GO AGAIN... another "little fit" by ADulay, lol, the real man with a car.

Let Ellis at least try to answer at least one simple question: Will he swear on his mother's grave, to the bulk of his own "preachings".




P.S. Everyone will die, that's life. Why restrict our planning to the "scare-tactics" of funeral directors? Ellis took an innocuous remark on my part and, as usual, twisted it all out of proportion into some sort of death threat (on to myself).

Do yourself a real favor, and sanction yourself... the "kiddies' game is down the street".

Originally Posted by garnabby

On the other hand, YOUZE claim all, but fail to answer any of the serious or even non-serious questions... all for ridiculous amounts of money, and further shabby treatment. (And no business-licences, etc.)

Wow! Garnabby is tongue tied and can't come up with a single answer, once again. Can't even pick on anybody again. You're losing buddy.

I sell nothing. It's YOU who said I'm a scammer or crook or whatever you decide to make up. Once again, you're caught in your own pack of made up stories and lies.

You have nothing to offer so can only attack. It's the final refuge of a losing argument.

You still keep saying I've never answered a question. Look at any thread and you'll see I've answered EVERY one of your questions, even the stupid ones, which most of them are.

It's YOU who elects not to read what's put in front of you if it doesn't appear to agree with what YOU seem to think is the way of the world.

The typical loser in an argument always starts attacking, not responding and changes the subject at any point to AVOID having to answer a serious question. That's been your method of operation since the first day I saw you attack anybody! You've lost and just can't come to grips with it.

You continue to "attack" me for some reason and all I've done is honestly answer your questions. If only you could do the same, Mike wouldn't have to close down another thread!

So, do you want to talk about baccarat or do you simply wish to continue to attack all reasonable conversation from the losing perspective? I really think it just tears you up that there are people out there winning at baccarat and you can't figure it out or get somebody to "give" you the secret system. Here's a hint Sherlock, you're not going to get it in a secret system. Like others have said, it takes work, practice, more work and more practice. Like every day and when you actually walk into the casino, you better be ready or you're going to lose your lunch, again.

Your lies follow you all over the gambling web sites.

So, what did you think of ALL the answers to your questions in the other thread? Can't believe you can't come up with something up to your usual lack of standards.

Or, you could just change the subject on to something like how you're just days away from your big killer system. As you've never posted anything even resembling any method of play, I find it hard to believe that you're just days away from "The Big One".

Once you get back into the real world and actually have to put money on the table again, you'll be right back in with the rest of us, except you'll still be losing because you simply cannot accept the fact that people can win at baccarat and because of that you'll be stuck in your current rut of wishing you could play but not having a clue as to what to do.

I'd personally like to see you win with the big one as then we'd all see that you really did play baccarat and not lose your $5000 buy-in before the first cup of coffee got cold.

So please, tell us some more of how smart you are at baccarat and attack everyone else. Kind of boring after the first 100 times you repeat yourself over and over.

Once again, I've answered all your questions, let's try answering one of mine. Here it is, one simple question:
How's your baccarat play going this year? Mine's doing just fine, thank you.

AD

Everyone will die, that's life.

Noooope. Not me.

Originally Posted by garnabby

I'm not the one trying to sell anything,

So you have no job and do not sell your time to an employer. Sure.

Originally Posted by garnabby

etc; or the one who pops up here and there (by chance, lol, like the other BTC-organizers,) trying to endorse the stuff of others, like thegeorgiahurricane found you tied in with, yourself.

What in holy hell does that mean in English? Garnabby, even a 4 year Math degree requires credits in English. I no longer believe you have a degree. You can't write plain English. If, in fact, you do, it certainly does not speak well of the school.

Originally Posted by garnabby

Let Ellis at least try to answer at least one simple question: Will he swear on his mother's grave, to the bulk of his own "preachings".

Garnabby, As I've said a zillion times and as all my students know, I've played an incredible amount of Baccarat over 30 years and often play with my students. I play the same way I teach. I usually win. If I didn't believe in what I teach I wouldn't play that way. YOU have watched me play what I preach WITH my students and win spectacularly. Deny this again. Add some humor to this thread.

So you already know all this and your posts are out of pure spite and jealousy.

On the other hand, you don't play at all, have no idea of how to win, have no concept of the card counting you propose and have never offered a single word of advice on how to beat Baccarat. All you have is some imaginary system you will perfect tomorrow with unnamed imaginary collaborators which you swear you won't ever reveal. Even your imagination is selfish. Yet you want everyone else to tell you all they know.

You can't reveal it because it doesn't exist. Neither do the collaborators. Its all in what is left of your mind. No one in their right mind would collaborate with you. You bring NOTHING to the table.

Go play with your card values. Maybe you can teach yourself something useful like how not to play.

Gotta love this forum... the "nuts" can't hide, any longer.

Originally Posted by John1234

Noooope. Not me.

Well, this is interesting then, a note from john1234 to all the members over there:

"To all Members,

Some of you have contacted me asking to notify you when the Assassin is ready. This is your official notification that the Assassin manual is complete and being emailed to our private members. We will be closing our doors for good after 145 more sales or 30 days from now, whichever comes first.


Regards,
The sniperbaccarat.com Team.

http://sniperbaccarat.com/forum/index.php ."





Looks like something just died.

Hey oj, i bet the 30 days comes first, lol.