Give me good advice

[garnabby]

I could start a log in a thread here and we'll see over the weeks how I do. I'll provide the actual shoe, my high, low, quit, starting money, ending money. What do you think?

Not much... Plasia has been on the "sillE bandwagon" ever since he arrived here. Very-biased and evasive about the known facts already presented about Ellis. (Care to "step up to the plate", Plasia, and answer a few of the outstanding questions about him, and/or BTC?)

Anyway, after all the "John's" over all these sorts of sites, either post something of (verifiable) note about yourself, your system as you play it... or "remain in the dugout".

Because anyone for some time could win with a bad system; or lose with a good one, which let's face it... will never if ever have anything to do with the FLD/OLD -stuff already worked to death by Ellis and scores of others before him, though a non-starter approach in the first place (, w/o any sort of logic/grounding).

[GarnabbysMom]

Sonny,

Have you been drinking again with your little friends? Everything you've posted today has that look about it, even on that noxious GG place you hang out at all the time when you're on my computer.

Please get some sleep tonight and try it again in the morning when your medication is a little more in check.

Love,

Mom

[Plasia]

Well I first wonder what the purpose of it all would be? But do as you please, Plasia, but not on my account. I do wish you all the luck. Without the games and the method it doesn't really help much or prove anything does it? Ellis demands the proof to be in the pudding, right?

This is the Internet and without verification everything must be held suspect. Don't you agree?

I certainly would not criticize you for it however.

Notice that most people here who have cared to post their results also posted their method. It's only the system sellers that don't. All others who do not care to post the method keep mum.

Archer

I'd be posting the shoes and the high, low and end statistics on them. I guess the "proof" would be if I can make 200 euros (which would be when I switch to a 10 euro unit) and then start earning some worthwhile money. This would take a while, remember I'm currently using 2 euro units! So it would prove that it is a long-term winner.

You're right, there needs to be verification. I could screenshot my ending euro at the end of each session?

Obviously I can't post the system I used.

[Plasia]

(Care to "step up to the plate", Plasia, and answer a few of the outstanding questions about him, and/or BTC?)

I can try. What would you like to know? I'll answer what I can.

Anyway, after all the "John's" over all these sorts of sites, either post something of (verifiable) note about yourself, your system as you play it...

I can't post the system that I play. It's not mine to give away. Why do you need something of note about myself? What does that prove?

[Archer]

I'd be posting the shoes and the high, low and end statistics on them. I guess the "proof" would be if I can make 200 euros (which would be when I switch to a 10 euro unit) and then start earning some worthwhile money. This would take a while, remember I'm currently using 2 euro units! So it would prove that it is a long-term winner.

You're right, there needs to be verification. I could screenshot my ending euro at the end of each session?

Obviously I can't post the system I used.

LOL, forgive me for laughing, Plasia. Nothing personal but system proofs must be a little more involved than posting screenshots of winning shoes. I could do that all day long and it wouldn't mean a thing.

But, on the other hand, posting the shoes might be interesting because players like to see shoes and if you post the high, low, and end statistics guys would probably like to fool around with all the stats so . . .knock yourself out. Nice of you to offer.

A

[ADulay]

But, on the other hand, posting the shoes might be interesting because players like to see shoes and if you post the high, low, and end statistics guys would probably like to fool around with all the stats
A

Posted live shoes are always a good idea. Lots of people can learn lots of things when a shoe shows up. There may even be a section here for that kind of thing and if not, there should be!

AD

[Plasia]

LOL, forgive me for laughing, Plasia. Nothing personal but system proofs must be a little more involved than posting screenshots of winning shoes. I could do that all day long and it wouldn't mean a thing.

But, on the other hand, posting the shoes might be interesting because players like to see shoes and if you post the high, low, and end statistics guys would probably like to fool around with all the stats so . . .knock yourself out. Nice of you to offer.

A

I'll just post the shoes and the stats and we'll see how I go then

[Ellis]

Not much... Plasia has been on the "sillE bandwagon" ever since he arrived here. Very-biased and evasive about the known facts already presented about Ellis. (Care to "step up to the plate", Plasia, and answer a few of the outstanding questions about him, and/or BTC?)

Garnabby you know nothing about me whatsoever except my age and the state where I reside. Just because you quote your own lies about me does not make them true. It just makes them double lies.

What outstanding questions? Your crap?

The only time you ever saw me play I won 90% of the hands right along with my 4 students playing with me. Then you lied about that. Anyone can tell you are lying because your lips are moving. You are startlingly pathetic.

You said last month that if you had a winning system you would NEVER post it. Now you critisize others for doing the same. That makes you a liar and a hypocrite. Crawl back in your hole. You've never posted anything the least bit useful anyway. To you, all winners are liars. Just because you can't figure out how to win yourself does't mean smarter people can't. 48 going on 8.

[Ellis]

Archer, you didn't care a thing about what we were doing even back when you were on our public forum. All you wanted to do was fight and argue and push your own crap. "Progressions can't win W/O winning half your bets" and other crap from your $10 card counting books. We post our shoes on our own forum. Anyone can go there and see for themselves:

beatthecasino.com

Anyone except you and garnabby. We don't want your kind. We don't want our forum turned into one big childish argument like this forum.

That reminds me. Garnabby, what questions about BTC? The only questions I've seen here is what's the address and what does it cost? $50 a month. What else?

[Ellis]

A very well written post John. Yes, I have fooled around with template systems in the past. I was wondering if you ever get down Tunica way? Its a half hour limo from the Memphis airport. I can get you comped. It might be fun to spend a day together. Maybe mutually beneficial too.

[Archer]

Garnabby you know nothing about me whatsoever except my age and the state where I reside. Just because you quote your own lies about me does not make them true. It just makes them double lies.

What outstanding questions? Your crap?

The only time you ever saw me play I won 90% of the hands right along with my 4 students playing with me. Then you lied about that. Anyone can tell you are lying because your lips are moving. You are startlingly pathetic.

You said last month that if you had a winning system you would NEVER post it. Now you critisize others for doing the same. That makes you a liar and a hypocrite. Crawl back in your hole. You've never posted anything the least bit useful anyway. To you, all winners are liars. Just because you can't figure out how to win yourself does't mean smarter people can't. 48 going on 8.

Wow, I guess I should read all the posts! Ellis please refer me to the post for a winning system.

A

[Archer]

[QUOTE=Ellis;19015]Archer, you didn't care a thing about what we were doing even back when you were on our public forum. All you wanted to do was fight and argue and push your own crap. "Progressions can't win W/O winning half your bets" and other crap from your $10 card counting books. We post our shoes on our own forum. Anyone can go there and see for themselves:[QUOTE]

I think you did not cut and paste that but tried to paraphrase because it seems llike a misquote. What I said was in order to win progressions one must win more big bets than small bets! Gee, I really know how to make the obvious seem profound, huh? In the case of 2hi we have a better chance since the odds are better to win more 1 unit bets which might overcome the 2 unit losses.

Further, if one must win more big bets than small bets then the big bets MUST, by definiton, be pos. "EV advantage" bets so why not just paper bet (virtual bet) the big bets only? I thought that was a reasonable discussion to have on your "public" forum.

Since you are all about selling (rather than playing) you get very defensive when someone brings up a reasonable disucussion which may put holes in your simple little bet methods.

Taking the advantage bet one step further one must then ask the question about flat betting those previous large "advantage" bets. But then you and Aegis ridiculed me for suggesting that flat betting can win. But here on this forum you noted that a "friend" of yours had been winning what amounts to 8-10 units a shoe flat betting for years!!!!!!

You just can't stand it when people like me actually read what you say and question your contradictions can you?

Know what your problem is Ellis? You don't like to talk Baccarat! Just anecdotes and self defense measures!

Archer >>>------------------> Ouch! That hurts! Sorry.......

[Archer]

I'd be posting the shoes and the high, low and end statistics on them. I guess the "proof" would be if I can make 200 euros (which would be when I switch to a 10 euro unit) and then start earning some worthwhile money. This would take a while, remember I'm currently using 2 euro units! So it would prove that it is a long-term winner.

You're right, there needs to be verification. I could screenshot my ending euro at the end of each session?

Obviously I can't post the system I used.

Just a couple of thoughts. Since you have decided to do this you may want to also talk about table selection. Ellis has said that you have to select tables not shoes. Perhaps you would give some info about the casino like how man tables there are, how easy or difficult it is to find a seat, how long it takes to find the right table - stuff like that from your own individual experience.

Also, you don't have to but I'm sure Ellis would appreciate you mentioning which one of his methods you use by name since he mentions them himself all the time. That wouldn't compromise anything.

That would be a great first hand thread!

Archer

[ayuinca]

Archer, from then on I have skipped all replied Ellis posted but could not avoid reading things about his ONLY-WINNING STORY from you guys' quote. If I skipped every post I have to leave the forum. I wish boss of this forum could delete Ellis' indirectly scam tempting people to his new system coming every one or two months. This's his way, marketing way to do selling system business.

If Ellis himself already admitted there is no mechanical thing can beat the game, what's the point he will 'invent' a new one every 1 or 2 months? Is this only because he has to find something new to keep his student and find new student? BTW, I do believe there is one mechanical system can beat the game.

If his trend is looking for chop and streak, why there are so many Ellis' systems? If a single one works why you need that many? Well, if you say different system for different pattern trend then you probability of finding a so called correct trend will be less than 50%.

Like I have said people will be lovely to tell how much he has won but less like to tell his lost. So Ellis will only know all the winning stories.

For any system he has he only posts winning sample shoes at his forum but never gave you any statistics proof. So he can never answer the question like how good the system works in a long run. This is all still-have-mind people want to know so naturally. If you ask he just put more samples or winning stories for you. After all he just leave all the test to his students at the real casino play. If not work, well a new one will come next month.

The ultimate GOLD-TESTING question is: if the system works why you sell it for cheap? Any time I see system selling I can't resist to ask myself this question. Then the only answer I can find is such thing could not work in a long term.

Ellis said it before that he wanted to teach people to beat the game, however people have to pay for that because this is about business. This is what he ever said. If I have to choose one from anything but business and truth, I will choose business because I know under business there is many deceptions.

Think about that GOLD-TESTING question. Ellis only said he is too old to play at casino. What an excuse. But there are always losers keep looking for system as his last life saving straw so Ellis always have business. After so many protest against Ellis for any proof of his trend or system, he just keeps avoiding this question or saying there is no proof. I haven't seen such a brass who can still have the brass to post replies here.

[ayuinca]

Notice that most people here who have cared to post their results also posted their method. It's only the system sellers that don't. All others who do not care to post the method keep mum.

Archer

Archer, I believe this: if true GOLD people will never make it exposed; if one works he will never sell, at least in cheap.

[Plasia]

Since you have decided to do this you may want to also talk about table selection. Ellis has said that you have to select tables not shoes. Perhaps you would give some info about the casino like how many tables there are, how easy or difficult it is to find a seat, how long it takes to find the right table - stuff like that from your own individual experience.

I'm playing on Black Orchid mostly so not much of that applies. I do evaluate the table before I play, if the shoe is a random mess, then I'll not play.

I'll start a thread about my experience with table selection at crown.

If his trend is looking for chop and streak, why there are so many Ellis' systems?

There are more trends than chop and streak. Different systems beat different trends.

[Ellis]

Wow, I guess I should read all the posts! Ellis please refer me to the post for a winning system.

A

It's not worth searching for or even reading.

[Ellis]

We actually also found one purely mechanical way that won with a large PA over 1000 shoes. But it depends on what you mean by winning. It suffered large draw downs along the way. Normal players would not have survived the draw downs. So I don't teach it.

I differentiate between "purely mechanical" and "follow the shoe" type systems. For instance TB4L is purely mechanical. All of the systems I've seen on this forum are purely mechanical. Even if you switch systems after a set number of losses I consider it purely mechanical. Such systems can win but only with accurate table selection.

I've often said that there are two ways to play:

1. Know a system and find a table your system beats.
2. Know many systems and know which one beats the table at hand.

A third way is to play a follow the shoe system that reacts to the shoe at hand. These involve counts.

But all 3 have strong points and weak points. All can win at the right table and all can lose at the wrong table.

I think the best way to play is to first see what you are up against. Look for easy win, highly biased, situations first. Take the gamble out of gambling as much as possible.

I learned to do that in BJ. and carried it over to Bac. It works extremely well in BJ in spite of the fact that it is contrary to every BJ book ever written. It also has served me very well in Bac.

But it is not something you can learn overnight in either game. It takes lots of study and practice. But mostly lots of casino time. Home practice is essential but limited. Knowing and understanding casino conditions is paramount. You MUST know what you are up against and IF you can beat it. Then, the best way to beat the situation at hand after first finding the best situation in the casino.

That's way too much for the avg. person to cope with. They are just out looking for a good time. They like to see the ball fly.

To me, casinos have never been a fun place. To me they are a job like any other job. I'm not there to have fun. I'm there to make money. Now, if I have a little fun on the way, all the better. But that is NOT why I'm there.

Then, I have to put up with all the antagonists. They prey on beginners because those are the only ones they can get to listen to them. Experienced players usually know better, but not always.

It's a lot like golf. Most anyone can learn to hit the ball. But EXPERTS play the conditions at hand. That's what makes them experts. The duffers don't want to be bothered by all those technicalities. They are just there to see the ball fly and have their hands full with only that.

[Archer]

We actually also found one purely mechanical way that won with a large PA over 1000 shoes. But it depends on what you mean by winning. It suffered large draw downs along the way. Normal players would not have survived the draw downs. So I don't teach it.

I differentiate between "purely mechanical" and "follow the shoe" type systems. For instance TB4L is purely mechanical. All of the systems I've seen on this forum are purely mechanical. Even if you switch systems after a set number of losses I consider it purely mechanical. Such systems can win but only with accurate table selection.

I've often said that there are two ways to play:

1. Know a system and find a table your system beats.
2. Know many systems and know which one beats the table at hand.

A third way is to play a follow the shoe system that reacts to the shoe at hand. These involve counts.

But all 3 have strong points and weak points. All can win at the right table and all can lose at the wrong table.

I think the best way to play is to first see what you are up against. Look for easy win, highly biased, situations first. Take the gamble out of gambling as much as possible.

I learned to do that in BJ. and carried it over to Bac. It works extremely well in BJ in spite of the fact that it is contrary to every BJ book ever written. It also has served me very well in Bac.

But it is not something you can learn overnight in either game. It takes lots of study and practice. But mostly lots of casino time. Home practice is essential but limited. Knowing and understanding casino conditions is paramount. You MUST know what you are up against and IF you can beat it. Then, the best way to beat the situation at hand after first finding the best situation in the casino.

That's way too much for the avg. person to cope with. They are just out looking for a good time. They like to see the ball fly.

To me, casinos have never been a fun place. To me they are a job like any other job. I'm not there to have fun. I'm there to make money. Now, if I have a little fun on the way, all the better. But that is NOT why I'm there.

Then, I have to put up with all the antagonists. They prey on beginners because those are the only ones they can get to listen to them. Experienced players usually know better, but not always.

It's a lot like golf. Most anyone can learn to hit the ball. But EXPERTS play the conditions at hand. That's what makes them experts. The duffers don't want to be bothered by all those technicalities. They are just there to see the ball fly and have their hands full with only that.

Hooray for Ellis! Here is a post without one anecdote and no obvious sales pitch. I can also agree with nearly everything he says. But, you know me - always looking for an argument!

Ellis writes: "They prey on beginners because those are the only ones they can get to listen to them. Experienced players usually know better, but not always." How VERY true that is Ellis. Hmmmmm ;-)

The idea of choosing a table or beating the table at hands deserves some real discussion. If we can establish shoe types the game becomes a cinch. There are only two ways this can work. 1) shoes "types" follow shoe "types" or 2) patterns follow patterns. This must occur enough in order to overcome commission and the times that it the game doesn't cooperate.

Developing methods to beat shoe types is the easy part.

Archer

[Ellis]

By contrast, I thought some of you guys might appreciate seeing an actual trip report from my private forum. It gives you an idea of the kind of posts we have on our private forum vs the kind of posts you guys have on this forum. It gives you some insight on how we play. Also, I had previously posted the results of the first 5 shoes PJ played so its only fair to post the rest of his trip. I also told you that I was fully confident that PJ would win the rest of his trip. See, I personally taught this guy how to play the table at hand. I taught him hands on in the casino. Also my guys stopped posting trip reports on this forum because Garnabby called them liars. Wouldn't you? Got this this morning:

03-04-2010 07:52 PM #129
PapaJoe

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Re: Rd1/n

Tunica Trip Report.

Really good normal trip. I played Sun-Wed total of 14 shoes.

10 shoes played RD1N. +20 +17 +2 +11 +10 +5 -10 +5 +16 +5 (8.1 units per shoe) That -10 shoe was a real mutha, I’ll post it in a couple of days.

RD1n went very smoothly, I played U1D2 No M2 cap at 5.

I did use a 9 hand look back to determine the strong/weak prog. This way there were no ties when choosing the strong prog. (per Ellis)

I played 3 shoes NuSAP 1,1,2 prog. +8, +5, -1.

I played 1 shoe RD1/F2, but played it very poorly and it ended -7. (My fault)

Anyway it was a very good trip. We had close friends meet us there from Chicago, so we had a lot of socializing and I tagged along while they played slots (no thanks) and went for the fine dining (I’m sure I gained 30 lbs.) I would have played many more shoes if it had been just me and wife Shirley.

Total won, 86 units. I’ll take results like this any time. I’m basically a very conservative player.

I have to go now, we had a death in the family yesterday (a cousin) and have to help make the arrangements.

Then, I’ll be back in full BTC mode, to answer questions.

Thanks,

PJ

End of QUOTE


Ellis again: RD1n is one of those Follow The Shoe systems I was talking about that can be played at any table any time W/O any table selection. That's what we do when we can't find a strong bias to exploit.

Now, is there anyone on this forum who can consistently play this well W/O ever betting more than 4 units? I don't think so. Not on this forum or any other, except mine.

Oh, yes he capped at 5 but RD1n is a net bet system meaning that his highest possible bet is 4 units.

Yes, PJ is the same guy that won 20 out of 20 on a recent Tunica trip with five of us. I only managed 16 out of 16 on that trip. Are you starting to get WHY I teach the way I teach? Or maybe you could get Garnabby or Archer to teach you??? Of the two, pick Archer. Or, you could pick me.
beatthecasino.com

[Ellis]

Hooray for Ellis! Here is a post without one anecdote and no obvious sales pitch. I can also agree with nearly everything he says. But, you know me - always looking for an argument!

Ellis writes: "They prey on beginners because those are the only ones they can get to listen to them. Experienced players usually know better, but not always." How VERY true that is Ellis. Hmmmmm ;-)

The idea of choosing a table or beating the table at hands deserves some real discussion. If we can establish shoe types the game becomes a cinch. There are only two ways this can work. 1) shoes "types" follow shoe "types" or 2) patterns follow patterns. This must occur enough in order to overcome commission and the times that it the game doesn't cooperate.

Developing methods to beat shoe types is the easy part.
Archer

Exactly right and good post Archer. "Cinch" might have been a bit of a stretch but it is certainly easier to play this way. I've found over 30 years that following the shoe is the ONLY way to win consistently regardless whether you do it by selecting the right system for the shoe/table at hand or by playing a system that automatically follows the shoe like RD1n or SAP.

Finding a strong bias to exploit wins the most money but is not always availabe so Follow the Shoe systems need to be in your arsenal.

And yes, I definitely wholeheartedly agree that is the direction I'd like to see this forum take.

It literally pains me when I see yet another mechanical progressive system on this forum. They are all eventually death traps. But they DO win a lot of shoes along the way and can be very alluring to inexperienced players. Makes it very hard to get their attention.

Archer, sorry about the sales pitch at the bottom of the next post but we have to follow our nature, don't we.

[Archer]

By contrast, I thought some of you guys might appreciate seeing an actual trip report from my private forum. It gives you an idea of the kind of posts we have on our private forum vs the kind of posts you guys have on this forum. It gives you some insight on how we play. Also, I had previously posted the results of the first 5 shoes PJ played so its only fair to post the rest of his trip. I also told you that I was fully confident that PJ would win the rest of his trip. See, I personally taught this guy how to play the table at hand. I taught him hands on in the casino. Also my guys stopped posting trip reports on this forum because Garnabby called them liars. Wouldn't you? Got this this morning:

03-04-2010 07:52 PM #129

PapaJoe

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Re: Rd1/n

Tunica Trip Report.

Really good normal trip. I played Sun-Wed total of 14 shoes.

10 shoes played RD1N. +20 +17 +2 +11 +10 +5 -10 +5 +16 +5 (8.1 units per shoe) That -10 shoe was a real mutha, I’ll post it in a couple of days.

RD1n went very smoothly, I played U1D2 No M2 cap at 5.

I did use a 9 hand look back to determine the strong/weak prog. This way there were no ties when choosing the strong prog. (per Ellis)

I played 3 shoes NuSAP 1,1,2 prog. +8, +5, -1.

I played 1 shoe RD1/F2, but played it very poorly and it ended -7. (My fault)

Anyway it was a very good trip. We had close friends meet us there from Chicago, so we had a lot of socializing and I tagged along while they played slots (no thanks) and went for the fine dining (I’m sure I gained 30 lbs.) I would have played many more shoes if it had been just me and wife Shirley.

Total won, 86 units. I’ll take results like this any time. I’m basically a very conservative player.

I have to go now, we had a death in the family yesterday (a cousin) and have to help make the arrangements.

Then, I’ll be back in full BTC mode, to answer questions.

Thanks,

PJ

End of QUOTE


Ellis again: RD1n is one of those Follow The Shoe systems I was talking about that can be played at any table any time W/O any table selection. That's what we do when we can't find a strong bias to exploit.

Now, is there anyone on this forum who can consistently play this well W/O ever betting more than 4 units? I don't think so. Not on this forum or any other, except mine.

Oh, yes he capped at 5 but RD1n is a net bet system meaning that his highest possible bet is 4 units.

Yes, PJ is the same guy that won 20 out of 20 on a recent Tunica trip with five of us. I only managed 16 out of 16 on that trip. Are you starting to get WHY I teach the way I teach? Or maybe you could get Garnabby or Archer to teach you??? Of the two, pick Archer. Or, you could pick me.
beatthecasino.com

LOL. No, I am not quite getting anything except you are back to hustling Bac players to send you money.

LOL, how many private members do you have on your website? How many have come forward and praised your methods? No need to post trip reports. For what purpose? A simple testimionial would do. One would think by now that there would be dozens of testimonials from dozens of private members of how well they are doing. Not just one or two players!

Why don't you send a message to all your private members and ask them to recommend your site? As a savvy marketing guy one would think you would have done that already. The happy customer list. Ever hear of that?

Heck, I will send you $50.00 myself if that happens and so will everyone else on this board I bet! You will be rolliing in $50.00 bills! Dude, you could probably move out of Arkansas! You might even be able to get your girlfriend back!

Archer>>>------------------> Ouch, that really hurts!

[ADulay]

LOL, how many private members do you have on your website? How many have come forward and praised your methods?

Hi!,

I am loathe to post here lest the wrath of the G-Man rains down on my head but I can toss in a nugget here from time to time.

There are quite a few private members at BTC. A few leave. Most stay. And quite a few contribute every week. There are only a finite amount of ways to bet on the game and the object is to find something that works for EACH INDIVIDUAL. What one guy plays with may well be out of my comfort zone so I'll run with something else. A few of the Ellis plays do not work well with me so I work with other plans to suit me.

Obviously there will those who are not happy and leave and spread their tales of woe. Hey, that's to be expected. If I was unhappy at the site, I would leave and if I felt I had been cheated or lied to, I'd be sure and post it up in the few baccarat sites that are out there.

However, the majority of the players over there appear to be satisfied with their choice to join.

Coming into another forum and posting up how much you've won last week is kind of suspect from any angle. Posting up a legitimate trip report is a differrent animal.

Why did I join over there? I've answered that several times in this forum. I was losing. I was struggling with the game and needed some new ideas that hadn't been rehashed in the free forums forever. It was not an easy transition as my old style of play really had to be revamped for sure. At least I now had an entirely new way of seeing the game.

Fast forward 7 months or so and my game is much better. I'm still in profits for this year and expect to stay that way for quite some time in the future. AND there's still room for improvment along the way, which is why I stay on the private forum.

Others may have different results. It was not an easy task and I had to open my eyes, my mind and change some old and ingrained ideas. It worked for me. Other's mileage may vary.

I am not a paid employee of BTC. Ellis did not put me up to this message. I am merely another baccarat player who wants to take 6 units out of every shoe. So far so good.

I do appreciate all of the people who post up here with new ideas, different thoughts on the game, and varying angles of the old game. As I can keep my mind open I'll always listen to anyone's view of how to play and will never give anyone a hard time about how they play. That would be counter-productive to all of us getting ahead when we play.

AD

[Ellis]

[/INDENT]LOL. No, I am not quite getting anything except you are back to hustling Bac players to send you money.

LOL, how many private members do you have on your website? How many have come forward and praised your methods? No need to post trip reports. For what purpose? A simple testimionial would do. One would think by now that there would be dozens of testimonials from dozens of private members of how well they are doing. Not just one or two players!

Why don't you send a message to all your private members and ask them to recommend your site? As a savvy marketing guy one would think you would have done that already. The happy customer list. Ever hear of that?

Heck, I will send you $50.00 myself if that happens and so will everyone else on this board I bet! You will be rolliing in $50.00 bills! Dude, you could probably move out of Arkansas! You might even be able to get your girlfriend back!

Archer>>>------------------> Ouch, that really hurts!

Archer, my players regularly post about their successes. But I would NEVER ask them to. That would defeat the purpose. Sales propaganda and that sort of thing. I think its better if they ALL are allowed to freely post whatever they want so there are no restrictions or agreements of any kind. It's a COMPLETELY free forum. All their posts are 99.9% positive. The only negative posts were guys from this forum who spent a couple days on my forum and then posted negative before they had a chance to
study or learn anything. I can only think of ONE individual in that category. The rest from this forum take my forum seriously and are doing fine. I'm not including you or Garnabby because neither of you was ever on my private forum and therefore have NO idea whatsoever of what you are talking about. You don't know so you make stuff up assuming you have an idea of what I teach but you guys are simply never right. Students on my forum laugh at both of you, esp. Garnabby - those that bother to read you two. The vast majority never bother.

Garnabby is far too negative and has no clue how to even begin to beat Baccarat. He reproves that with every post he writes. Then NOBODY can understand his posts anyway perhaps because they really don't have any understandable meaning. They are a compilation of the longest, least known words he could find in the dictionary which he always uses out of any meaningful context. A blowhard trying to be the King of Baccarat. Trying to be impressive.

You, on the other hand, have some idea of how to play but totally addicted to argument even if you have to continuously contradict yourself just to present an argument - any argument. Semantics - anything. People get real tired of both approaches to a forum. Not just me, everybody. That is why this forum has such a huge turnover rate. Not mine. I'll never have to worry about competition from this forum.

[Archer]

Hi!,

I am loathe to post here lest the wrath of the G-Man rains down on my head but I can toss in a nugget here from time to time.

There are quite a few private members at BTC. A few leave. Most stay. And quite a few contribute every week. There are only a finite amount of ways to bet on the game and the object is to find something that works for EACH INDIVIDUAL. What one guy plays with may well be out of my comfort zone so I'll run with something else. A few of the Ellis plays do not work well with me so I work with other plans to suit me.

Obviously there will those who are not happy and leave and spread their tales of woe. Hey, that's to be expected. If I was unhappy at the site, I would leave and if I felt I had been cheated or lied to, I'd be sure and post it up in the few baccarat sites that are out there.

However, the majority of the players over there appear to be satisfied with their choice to join.

Coming into another forum and posting up how much you've won last week is kind of suspect from any angle. Posting up a legitimate trip report is a differrent animal.

Why did I join over there? I've answered that several times in this forum. I was losing. I was struggling with the game and needed some new ideas that hadn't been rehashed in the free forums forever. It was not an easy transition as my old style of play really had to be revamped for sure. At least I now had an entirely new way of seeing the game.

Fast forward 7 months or so and my game is much better. I'm still in profits for this year and expect to stay that way for quite some time in the future. AND there's still room for improvment along the way, which is why I stay on the private forum.

Others may have different results. It was not an easy task and I had to open my eyes, my mind and change some old and ingrained ideas. It worked for me. Other's mileage may vary.

I am not a paid employee of BTC. Ellis did not put me up to this message. I am merely another baccarat player who wants to take 6 units out of every shoe. So far so good.

I do appreciate all of the people who post up here with new ideas, different thoughts on the game, and varying angles of the old game. As I can keep my mind open I'll always listen to anyone's view of how to play and will never give anyone a hard time about how they play. That would be counter-productive to all of us getting ahead when we play.

AD

Thanks AD. I don't believe I have hassled anyone for posting what they claim to be legitimate trip reports. I don't post mine because I am not selling anything and I don't believe it is hepful without discussing the method. I don't discuss how I play because I don't need to get into a big thread about it.

I have given Ellis credit where credit is due. I have said openly that my opinion is that his stuff is worth $50.00 for players who need or want to look at ideas. (IMO, not $500) Ellis has some good ideas. Everyone here knows what my disagreements are with Ellis.

I have had a number of PM's from players from Ellis' private forum that have confirmed my opinions. Some have even sent off some of Ellis' ideas so I know whereof I speak. (LOL, I don't have System 40 or RD whatever so anyone who wants to PM me they can!) They also have confirmed, like you, that they enjoy the forum and want to be involved. LOL, that's cool with me.

But to come here post after post and say, "I win, I win, you lose, you lose so send me 500 bucks. . ."is a bunch of BS. I have been listening to this stuff from Ellis for about 12 years! I am tired of the hype and the misinformation and the outright "un truths" about his past.

A

[Ellis]

My past is my past Archer. I can't change it but neither can you. Lots of people still alive were there first hand. You wern't one of them so again you have no idea of what you are talking about. Just rambling on about whatever enters your head.

No one "confirmed" your opinions Archer. One or two might have "agreed" with them. That's a long way from confirmation. There you go again with your semantics. And one of those was a spy from this forum who has since quit this forum. Wonder why? The remaining members are the same guys that voted you off my forum Archer as a non contributer who was just there to argue.

I suggest you read Georgia's trip report. That is constructive. I'm hoping we start seeing more such reports on this forum rather than your made up argumentative, nonsensical waste of time arguments.

But heaven forbid anyone talk about winning on this forum. This came as no shock to me. I see them all the time on my forum but its the first I've seen on this forum. This forum is mostly about why you can't win. Post after post, thread after thread. All negative attitude. I guess Georgia wasn't listening or more accurately, he was only listening to the right posts. Instead of letting all this negativity get to him He woke up and smelled the roses. Try it sometime. It's a great experience. This game CAN be beat!

[Archer]

My past is my past Archer. I can't change it but neither can you. Lots of people still alive were there first hand. You wern't one of them so again you have no idea of what you are talking about. Just rambling on about whatever enters your head.

No one "confirmed" your opinions Archer. One or two might have "agreed" with them. That's a long way from confirmation. There you go again with your semantics. And one of those was a spy from this forum who has since quit this forum. Wonder why? The remaining members are the same guys that voted you off my forum Archer as a non contributer who was just there to argue.

I suggest you read Georgia's trip report. That is constructive. I'm hoping we start seeing more such reports on this forum rather than your made up argumentative, nonsensical waste of time arguments.

But heaven forbid anyone talk about winning on this forum. This came as no shock to me. I see them all the time on my forum but its the first I've seen on this forum. This forum is mostly about why you can't win. Post after post, thread after thread. All negative attitude. I guess Georgia wasn't listening or more accurately, he was only listening to the right posts. Instead of letting all this negativity get to him He woke up and smelled the roses. Try it sometime. It's a great experience. This game CAN be beat!

Huh? Talk about rambling*!?!? If I knew what you were talking about I could respond but. . .back to Baccarat.

How does a report of my last trip (or anybody's) help anyone Ellis? Why don't you post your own winning trip reports? How many shoes have you played in the last year? Maybe ten? LOL, you are such a phoney!

Again, Ellis, why don't you ask all your PM's to post testimonials on this site? Again, how many members do you have? How many are just raving about you? Why aren't you living in LV running a Baccarat team making hundreds of thousands of dollars? Pfffff!

Dude, you are a business man selliing a service. Your advertising sucks! It has all the earmarks of snake oil. Where's the BEEF?

The last 6 shoes I played at Gold Strike showed a profit of 84 units (net)! Send me $500.00 and I will send you those shoes showing you exactly how I played them! If you don't hurry up I am going to raise the price to $1,000.00. Remember when you tried that bait and switch a few months ago on BTC? Soon after that tactic didn't work you reduced the price tag to $50.00 a month! - - What a poser! You are PATHETIC loser. Can't win at Baccarat so you are selling what most experienced players call junk - for 50 bucks!

Fact is you can win. With a little experience and luck and discipline you can scrape out a few units a shoe long term. No matter how you play you will have losses and these losses will reduce your bottom line. You can have long winning streaks and long losing streaks. Just the nature of the game.

I am jealous of Ellis. I wish I could sit in front of the computer all day and get people to send me 50 bucks or 500 bucks without having to risk any money of my own! Ellis has a sweet deal. If only Archer and others would not call him to task he would have a sweeter deal. Dang that Archer!

Archer>>>-----------------> "twang"

[Ellis]

You are hopeless Archer. My members don't post on this forum because they don't give a s--t about this forum. You and Garnabby ruined it. You won therefore you're lying.

If you see no value in winning trip reports, fine. I see no value in your posts whatsoever. But others might like to see winning trip reports and how it was done.

Learning any sport or any game or any activity there is ALWAYS value in learning how others did it unless you are already the best there is. Is that what you are saying? Are you the best there is Archer?

The avg. trip report on my forum generates about a hundred questions. I wonder why that is since there is no value in trip reports?

If you were learning to play golf would you avoid watching pros play? If the guy ahead of you put one 3' from the cup on a par 3 would you avoid asking what club he used?

Maybe you discovered a new way to teach. Maybe we should keep everything secret from the student and make sure he never gets any practical experience.

You are just jealous Archer, just like Garnabby. You two just can't stand it when anybody pays any attention to anyone else. You two have nothing to teach yourselves so instead you attack anyone who does. You two are pathetic three year olds. That's exactly how 3 year olds act. If they arn't the center of attention they cry and pout.

[Mike]

As a footnote to this, I've now banned Hornybacprincess and GarnabbysMom.

No fake names or double accounts.

Do not troll - "Trolling," i.e. posting inflammatory, off-topic, highly immature, or insulting messages to provoke a reaction from others, is completely unacceptable and will result in your account being promptly banned. However, friendly debate, socializing, and good humor are perfectly welcome here. What crosses the line is when someone behaves in a manner that degrades the quality of the forums for other members. These forums are a resource for your growth in baccarat, not a juvenile stomping ground.

[Ellis]

Ellis has said that you have to select tables not shoes.

Archer

Archer, if you are going to quote me, QUOTE/ me. Don't make stuff up and attribute it to me.

That's like your you "predict" while I "guess" thing. You think you're fooling people. You are insulting their intelligence. And your own.