Ellis Davis has a site whereby he teaches people how to play BJ, and Baccarat. He charges $500.00 to join. Ellis now states he has a money back guarantee but does not stipulate the terms.

Baccarat: Ellis will teach you how to play existing trends in the shoe. Ellis makes it clear that there is no mechanical method so you will have to learn how to make; well shall we say an "intelligent guess" as to how to play. Ellis has made it clear that Baccarat is a 50-50 game so that the likelihood of one decision occurring over the other is 50-50. Even though this may sound like a contradiction in terms it is not.(?!&%!!?) Because each game has a trend and he will teach you how to change your bet placements to win 83% of shoes and gain a double digit advantage over the house by betting no more than 2 units at any time. (If my math is correct this means that out of 100 hands bet you will at the very least win approx. 15 units or 9-10 units per 8 deck shoe).

He also has free systems in the public forum of his site. But he has warned people not to play them because they don't work.

If you join the private forum for $500.00 he will show you how to play many different mechanical systems. Even though he warns that these mechanical systems don't work by themselves he will teach you when to switch to the correct ones for the shoe you are playing.

I guess that about sums it up.

Archer

Maybe, we should get the moderators to make this thread a sticky one.

Well Archer was on our forum for a short time but his sole interest there was to argue with everyone and expound on his own flat bet system and his "advantage bets". But he either could not or would not explain what an advantage bet was.

Unlike this forum, my forum is not about arguing and the members soon complained that Archer was taking up all their time on our forum W/O offering anything.

I have nothing against flat bet systems. Some of our members prefer to flat bet our systems and do well. But when a member posts incessantly about his system and yet can't or won't explain it I can't blame members for complaining. They complained to our moderator that Archer was wasting their time. Keith, our moderator knows Archer from way back but had no choice so Archer was removed. Our forum is about learning winning methods, not arguing with everyone.

I actually was interested in learning Archer's method because a flat bet method must concentrate on hand's won rate which is what we do. But he never got around to telling us. Too busy arguing. So the members pegged him as a complete phony with no system and a waste of time and demanded his removal. Right or wrong, that's what happened.

Garnabee met the exact same fate for the exact same reason.

I can't remember if Archer was ever a member of our private forum or not but it makes little difference. He made it clear that he had no interest in learning our systems because of the huge progressions involved. Well the vast majority of our members never bet more than 2 units which Archer would have known if he had just stopped arguing long enough to read a little. But he never did. This is borne out by the fact that virtually everything in Archer's post above is wrong making it very reminiscent of his posts on our forum. Worthless. Almost.

My free systems are not purely mechanical. You must read far enough in the instructions to know how to vary your prog lenth, either 2 plays or 4 plays according to whether the shoe favors chop or streak. If you do that correctly you will win as many have. If you don't, you'll lose. But many of the public run right out and play as soon as they know what the circles mean. Those are the ones that lose.

I have always had a full moneyback guarantee as I have mentioed on this forum before. So Archer knows that full well. Also, as I have mentioned here we've had ONE player out of 4000 ask for his money back and was immediately refunded. He then went out and tried every Baccarat forum on the internet including this forum. But he quickly got his fill and rejoined our forum.

Our Private Baccarat Forum is a subscription forum and has been for some time. The dues are $50 a month. There are no other charges. There are no minimums and you can quit any time you want. So far no one has.

Look, I've been playing this game for 25 years and I can tell you for an absolute fact there is only ONE way to beat it. And that way is to match the right system to the shoe you are playing. IF you stay with this game long enough you will eventually come to that same realization. That's the way to win so that's what I teach. I also teach to determine the right system from the tote boards BEFORE you sit down. Figuring it out at the table can be expensive.

Archer's math above is, in fact, correct. That's the one thing he got right. Also, he seems to have mended his ways on this forum and has become an asset rather than a hindrance, much to his credit. I suspect he saw the light once he got a load of Garnabee.

Many from this forum have joined my forum and quickly discoverered a whole new argument free world of Baccarat with a whole new approach to the game and are now enjoying the numbers above. Make up your own minds. Do you want to stay here and learn how to debate or do you want to learn how to win at Baccarat. You'll never learn here!

Ellis,

The reason why people want to argue with you is because you make us all feel stupid with your cockiness in playing the game, and too desperate to get people on your side by enticing them with a "perfect win" (which we know don't exist). The reason why people can't stop arguing is very simple. You are a disease to them. Until this disease is removed, people are finding it hard to continue on with their daily jobs(discussing baccarat) because you are just affecting them very badly in emotional and logical sense. So if you want us to stop, at least stop showing off and instead teach us something and discuss.
Just as you mentioned that baccarat is a 50-50 game, any method can be counterattacked by the mirrored counterpart. In other words, you cannot predict the trend. However one thing I must say is that Baccarat is a very misleading game. In the short run, they will mislead us into thinking that there is a certain trend in it (that is how people go about thinking they can beat this game), but just when we want to catch that trend it evolved into something else and that is how people lost their game. I have done some simulation on these trend and I found out in the short run there are a certain trend to it, but these trend is unpredictable, at one time it may look like trend A is showing, other time it maybe trend B and the list goes on. Unless you have Ellis "intelligent guess", you are not going to be able to predict it or calculate it. If we calculate these trend occurances, we can see that all the trend is actually almost equal to the other trend by a very small differences(the reason why this game is almost 50-50). So no matter which trend you choose to stick on, the other trend will beat you. So with your BS telling us 5 of you went to the casino and 5 of you winning and to top it all, everyone of u is like winning perfectly is darn impossible.
Well Ellis try this. I want you to believe in me that there is no trend in Baccarat and the only thing you can win is to stop playing. If you can believe in this then the arguing will stop.

Well ahairo, I didn't start this. Your leader of this forum did. He came to my forum and viciously attacked everyone in sight for no reason whatsoever and without any idea of what he was talking about. Then he bragged about it on this forum. You need to redirect your hostiities in the right direction to the right cause.

I don't blame you for thinking that the game is unbeatable. That is exactly what they teach here.

You'll never figure out on your own how to identify trends let alone how to play them. It's just not that easy. But every Baccarat game ever dealt had a playable trend and they always will. But you need to be taught how to identify them and how to play them. They usually aren't that easy to see. I've been winning playing trends for 25 years so please excuse me if I don't automatically buy your conception of the game. I know differently after putting in many years of figuring out how to beat this game. And I started as a Math professor with a 160 IQ. It just ain't that easy. If that's being cocky then so be it. I'm cocky.

But you are already defeated. You let the game defeat you. I'd rather be cocky than defeated. But it took me 25 years to get cocky. How long did it take you to get defeated?

Here's a copy of a post I got today from a converted member of this forum. I'm going to leave his name out purposely to spare him from being attacked by certain members here. As that is the main focus here.

This has to do with the sales pitch that Masterbaccarat posted recently on this forum;

QUOTE
Re: RD1 Questions
For what it's worth, there's a guy who recently posted up on the BF about his "system" that will beat all of the tough plays in the game. He showed 5 demo shoes of really bad things that can happen that his method of play will beat.

I ran all five of them on RD1 and beat them all with no problem.
END OF QUOTE

Now here is a player who also won't agree with your defeated conception of the game. He is learning how to beat this "unbeatable" game. He's got a pretty good string of winning trips under his belt now so he KNOWS the game is beatable with the right instruction and the right Instructor, neither of which is at your disposal on this forum or any other but mine.

So please excuse me if I don't surrender as easy as you did.

Cocky

Oh, one other thing ahairo. I've tried teaching on this forum. Twice now I've posted exactly how to win at Baccarat. I've also posted precise basic Baccarat statics several times. I've had one single positive response and that from a member who later quit this forum in complete disgust. Every other time I tried I either got harrassed for my efforts or I got no response whatsoever. So what's the point. These guys are in no frame of mind to learn anything. Somebody made them that way and it wasn't me. Players here are afraid to post anything positive. They get crucified for their efforts. This forum has been completely compromised.

Please see corrected guarantee information.

Will you please clearly explain how one does "that correctly?"

Thank you for clearing that up, Ellis. Would you kindly post the Terms and Conditions for that guarantee or is it simply unconditional?

I hope the players who paid $500.00 aren't annoyed. Adulay recently stated he paid $500.00. Would you please explain this discrepancy? Perhaps you sent him $450.00 back?


Please explain what I got wrong. I honestly do NOT want to misrepresent.

That certainly is some testimonial! Unfortunately it has not come from the "many" members of this forum who are enjoying 83% shoe win rate and about 10 units a shoe with only a 2 unit high bet. (You said I got the math right.) I am not doubting mind you, just looking forward to these BF converts to come forward.

Archer

You did a fine job of listing them yourself Archer. I can't do any better.

As to your one Baccarat question. You use a two bet prog when shoes favor streak and a 4 bet prog when shoes favor chop. This still allows you to play 2 Hi because you are net betting.

I suspect you know what monthly means. Most members have been with us several years at $500 lifetime. So they got the better deal. But of course you can add so you know all that and your sole purpose is harrassment. Why is that? To what purpose?

You told me you could win flat betting. So why aren't you teaching these guys how to do that? That's what people mistakingly come here for. Where are the systems and the casino results? Where's the instruction? Where are the group trip reports? Oh, I forgot. They're all on my forum. This forum is about why you shouldn't play Baccarat. I don't think that's what players came here to hear. If I'm wrong the floor is yours. Start teaching! Players are here to learn. Or, you could pull a Garnabby, just like you're doing. Something to hide behind.

Too busy harrassing people again, eh?

Well, that's stupidly easy. Try teaching these people how to win. Start putting your money where your mouth is like I do. Garnabby can't. He doesn't even play. But you do.

Thank you but you still didn't say what it is I got wrong. No need to get so defensive, Ellis. You inferred that my post only got one thing right. Why is it harassing to ask what it is that I posted that was wrong?

Okay, well that hardly explains how we can win, does it? How do we tell when the shoe favors streak or chop? It's a simple question, Ellis. If you don't want to answer just say so - no problem, dude.

Okay, so you are saying it is basically a discount if you go lifetime. fine. Thank you. Was that so hard? No secret about my purpose. I just wanted to know why 50 bucks all of a sudden when a few months back you were talkiing about raising the fee to 1,000.00. Forgive me for breathing - chill!

No Ellis, I have never said I would teach people Baccarat. Let me make this perfectly clear. I have no intention of showing anyone how I play or how to play. My interest in this site is twofold. To discuss the theoretical aspects of the game in that through this discussion I (we) may find a better "mousetrap." To kick around ideas so those who want to experiment and conduct extensive testing of various themes may, BY THERE OWN EFFORTS, find a winning way that suits there bankroll and disposition. That is, after all, what this site is all about. It is a free site to discuss ideas of Baccarat play. It is not promoted as a teaching site. Naturally there may be some that have ideas or concepts they don't want to share. That is OKAY. No promises here. Folks can join your site, it's a free country.

You see Ellis your involvement presents a conflict of interest. You propose theory (as above) but will not share on this site. That's why I posted the "advertisement." Apparently you are within your rights to continually plug your site and solicit business.

I don't believe I have made any claims about my own play, perhaps I have. I have pointed people to a public site (casinoedge.com) which has a winning flat bet method that I am aware of. I think it costs $150.00 but I am not sure. I do not get a financial reward for that plug.

So don't be so defensive. LOL, sorry to laugh but I don't see you putting up any money - quite the contrary, you are here to make money, I am not.

I do think that when people question your theories you turn into a big baby attack dog. It's one thing to have theories and quite another to have proofs. People have every right to their theories. You included. So if someone agrees the game cannot be beaten or is statistically random then that's their prerogative. If someone believes their is a bias then . . .

Somewhere I think I read that you said you are here to help. Are you? How? By plugging your site? Don't get nervous - that's permitted. Or by adding to the dialogue?

Listen, I guess you have a right to be a bit defensive after being called a scamming money grabbing snake oil salesman so many times. That's harsh, dude, wow! But you don't go away because you are really here just to drum up business. So grin and bare it! It's the price we are going to pay when we can't back up our theories with substantial proof.

BUT, HEY - LET'S TRY OK? Let's all start with your net betting concept 2 unit high and "choosing two bet prog when shoes favor streak and a 4 bet prog when shoes favor chop. This still allows you to play 2 Hi because you are net betting."

Don't get funny on me now! See my new threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Archer

Sorry Archer I don't have time right now. Look I got the first sample game ready for posing. That's more urgent right now. I did the streak version first. But so far I've got no volunteer to post it. Maybe you guys aren't set up to post shoes? If you are, can you post it for me? I know you're very computer literate.

I, for one, cannot understand this post. You don't have time all of a sudden? This all sounds like 5 or 6 excuses to me.

A

Archer, as you know, several of the guys here, including you I think, asked me to supply complete instructions on the 2Hi net bet system along with samples. I've been working on that all day. Its very time consuming to do it right. Can anyone here post sample games? Or should I just forget the whole thing and answer your post. Is that what you want? How about the other guys that made the request??? Are they not serious?

So post the rules already! I am not the boss of this site.

A

I can't. The rules refer to the sample.I told the guys the best I can do is post it on my free forum and they can learn it over there. Try to play by written rules and ten guys will play it ten different ways.

So post the rules to RD1 then. That's as simple as it gets. That should be on the free systems, too. What's the diff? It's all about the tote board, right?

A

Ha, fat chance. I needed to revamp my public forum anyway. The streak rules were not as clear as I now realize they must be for the general public. I've learned the hard way that unless you post a complete played game and directly relate every rule to a play or plays in it you lose 95% of the students, probably more. I've even had lawyers that can't follow simple basic rules without explicit examples of every sentence.

But I also learned something myself. This streak version is a lot stronger than I realized and also holds its own in chop sections of the shoe It can even win if the whole shoe turns choppy on you so I'm thinking I can recommend it for neutral shoes as well and recommend the chop version only for true chop. We never fool around with the free systems in the private forum so I've had little chance to experiment with them.

I played the streak version right to the posted rules IF you can find them. I need to have ALL the rules for both versions in one place with complete samples on a sticky. This exercize was not a complete waste of time. I now have the sample games to completely revamp my entire free systems section of the public forum. Once I have that completed I'll come back to this forum with directions of how to get to it for free.

But quite frankly, I don't see much point in a Baccarat Forum that can't post Baccarat. I should have it ready in a week or so if I can stay away from this forum.

Dude, you said it was simple. I'll help you out. Send it to me PM and I will rewrite the rules for an easy explanation to the BF members. Trust me, I can articulate the rules very clearly without a sample shoe.

????? Why do you keep on harping about the free systems that you don't fool around with- very frustrating. We don't fool around with them either. Try to stay on topic here, Ellis. You are going to post one of your winning methods that wins if one changes from 1234 net betting to 12 betting at the appropriate time and we are going to try to figure out when to change. You started to then you switched it to free systems somehow. Are you getting, well, you know. . .nah, you are still on the ball,

Again, send it to me PM. I'll rewrite it in a jif and explain it. Free you up from your busy schedule.

A

Just when i thought Ellis was going to stand his ground and earn much respect around here. Well.

Joshky, I agreed to teach you guys P/B2Hi both the chop and streak versions and I will. But you need sample shoes because the rules continuously refer to the sample. There is no way to post games on this forum. Therefore it is impossible to teach all but the very simplest of systems here. But I can post shoes and rules on my free forum. What's the difference where they are posted?

P/B2Hi is a good system. I posted the results of the sample shoe above. Nobody here could play that shoe that well on their best day w/o betting more than 2. It's the same system Ad used among many others to earn his lifetime membership on my forum in ten shoes. So my forum cost him nothing. Now he's well ahead.

But no, I did not agree to teach you RD1. My private members wouldn't stand for it as Archer knows full well. It's one of their favorite systems and also kills the above shoe.

Attaching files is easy here too. Simply hit the quote button below the post you want to reply to then page down to the "additional options" screen below the posting window and click on the "Manage Attachments" button to insert an attachment file.
Sorry but I don't take email so I can't post them for you ellis.
I attached a twister / anti twister shoe to shoe you it is possible.

Attached Images

Asian1.jpg (63.8 KB, 33 views)

I guess it is not so impossible to post shoes here. The difference is that you have come here with the purpose of soliciting business under the guise of teaching. I think folks know by now where your site is and where the free systems are.

If it is a good system why does anyone need to pay for other systems? Didn't I post how a simple TBL method beat that shoe flat bet? I replayed it with the OTB4L method that Natural Nine posted in the .jpg. Also won 6 units flat bet. So "Nobody here could play that shoe that well on their best day w/o betting more than 2." just went up in smoke - nothing new there. Ahaiio is correct - your cockiness is not very becoming - aren't you just a little red-faced? No, never let them see you sweat, huh, Ellis.

It cost AD nothing? It cost him $500.00 bucks dude. But again, the implication is anyone can win playing that method anytime.

Are you going to make me look up your post and quote you? You didn't say you would teach RD1. What you said was that you would show us a net bet method that bets 12 on streak and 1234 on chop and that's all. We have to figure out when to switch.

Look, you have stated that in order to win the game one must be able to match the system with the shoe. My contention is that playing TBL or OTBL will win EVERY shoe IF you switch at the right time! You don't need any RD1, SKOR, SKORz, SAP, TWISTER, ANTI-TWISTER or any number of others you may come up with next week. If people read you trip reports they will see that you play those two methods. These are as old as the hills - and for a good reason - they win every combination!

Archer

Archer, you're just arguing nonsense for the sake of arguing. You're smarter than that dude.

No actually I am not. I am just trying to stay on topic. I am happy to keep this on Baccarat. You were going to show everyone here how to play a net bet method that wins as long as you choose the correct table. It is clear to anyone following these posts that your free systems are NOT methods that you recommend. Reason is they are not optimum strategies that's all. It is true they are kind of neat little methods and some people can and do win money they then can send you for subscriptions. Be honest, Ellis, if you play them long enough as written you will lose ALL your bankroll! An honest broker would reveal a better method. One that he espouses is a winning method if utilizing table selection.

You have other strategies that are optimum. Just as TBL and OTBL are optimum. But they won't win either without adjustment.

Apparently you are not now willing to show people what you said you would. That's because the reason you are here is to sell subscriptions. You are pretending to help but are sharing nothing. Frankly, I object to that kind of predator marketing.

Maybe we should just talk about table selection using TBL and OTBL. Folks can win with that. What do you say? That is an old, reliable and optimum method. You didn't invent it. We could talk about different counts for switching and MM. You could throw in your two cents.

I mean, Doooooooode, you spend enough time posting here for criyn' out loud. You don't even have time for your own 100's of emails and phone calls because you are here trying to solicit business. You must be hurting. Otherwise why you would spend sp much time here and really not help?

Look, I tell you what. I'll send you 50 bucks, OK. Not to join BTC. Just to compensate you for your time. You got Pay Pal, right?

A

Let's see how you play Ellis, I'm new to this forum and just trying to learn and not willing to pay $50 or 500 bucks to join your forum, LOL.

Don't hold your breath. He is here soliciting business. What seems weird though is that he has said that the $500.00 lifetime membership is actually a discounted rate to the $50.00 monthly. Does it take a lifetime to learn how to win? Won't a month or two do. I am serious. People usually want to know what they are going to get with a purchase. How long will it take to learn. Can't someone learn this in a month or two, Ellis?

A

There are free systems on my forum Action. They aren't bad but what I teach on the private forum is better. That should give you an idea if you want to join or not. They don't teach any complete systems here. Just betting methods.

You started this thread Archer, I didn't. I thought I got everybody I was going to get here but then you started this thread and I keep getting more. I never said what you just quoted me as saying. That's two quotes in 4 posts you got completely wrong. You're beginning to make stuff up as you go but that's normal on this forum.

You can learn to win in a matter of days as AD pointed out here right after he joined my forum from this forum. But many of my members have been members for 15 years or more. Why stop learning? You can keep getting better at this game forever. Many of the best players in the world are on my forum. Its a serious learning experience for serious mature players and many contribute. It's not a barb throwing contest like this juvenile forum.

Many players are striving to learn and starved for accurate Baccarat information but make the mistake of landing in the middle of this ridiculous Jerry Springer show. They read posts like yours and immediately begin looking elsewhere. Then I come along. You can't expect people to stick with a forum that is principally about why you shouldn't play Baccarat. That's not what they came to hear.

You make fun of what I teach but All of the players on my forum that have been there more than a week are winning. We all post our shoes and our trip reports and we often play together. Here there isn't a single shoe or trip report posted anywhere. Here, most of the talk is about losing or not playing. And when anyone even mentions winning you ALL come down on him as if he was the enemy. Look what you did to PitBoss. I'm not doing anything to steal your members. I don't have to. You are driving them away and you're getting a lot of help.

Ann, my playing partner, just read this post over my shoulder. She just had to remind me of the time I took 8 members of her family to Tunica because they all also doubted that we always won. Ann started out with a hundred dollars, gave over $2000 of her winnings to her family members so they could all play, paid all their commissions, and left the casino with $2300 which she split amongst her family. Her son Thurstle was there and kept a written record of the whole night. Ann demanded that I put this para. in. We've had 100s of winning trips together and were also barred together from Turning Stone and Caesars AC. I could write a book about our winning trips together. Hell, Caesar's threw our clothes out in the hall. 30 of my members were there.

I know I'm not staying here. Why would I want to teach guys here when they treat me like you do? I'm going back where I'm wanted and where players are there to learn. I don't have to prove anything to you guys. I've been proving it to the people that count for 25 years. You can call me a liar all you want. You weren't there. They were!

Oh, that reminds me: John, my official capacity on this forum is dart board!

I am not calling you a liar and I am not making fun of you. Just asking reasonable questions about your business. Not getting a lot of answers. Just the occasional name calling and changing the subject.

You are not going anywhere. You will be right here selling your wares because that is what you do. People are free to go to your site and learn how to select tables. That is essentially what you are offering. You say that, not me. Let me re-post the original advertisement which you have accepted as true.

"Ellis Davis has a site whereby he teaches people how to play BJ, and Baccarat. He charges $500.00 to join. Ellis now states he has a money back guarantee but does not stipulate the terms.

Baccarat: Ellis will teach you how to play existing trends in the shoe. Ellis makes it clear that there is no mechanical method so you will have to learn how to make; well shall we say an "intelligent guess" as to how to play. Ellis has made it clear that Baccarat is a 50-50 game so that the likelihood of one decision occurring over the other is 50-50. Even though this may sound like a contradiction in terms it is not.(?!&%!!?) Because each game has a trend and he will teach you how to change your bet placements to win 83% of shoes and gain a double digit advantage over the house by betting no more than 2 units at any time. (If my math is correct this means that out of 100 hands bet you will at the very least win approx. 15 units or 9-10 units per 8 deck shoe).

He also has free systems in the public forum of his site. But he has warned people not to play them because they don't work.

If you join the private forum for $500.00 he will show you how to play many different mechanical systems. Even though he warns that these mechanical systems don't work by themselves he will teach you when to switch to the correct ones for the shoe you are playing.

I guess that about sums it up."

Well, now it is 50 bucks for a month. Which is weird, isn't it? The only conclusion I can come to is that it is not possible to learn how to play RD1 and select tables in a month - or two - or three.

You never respond - how come?

Archer