Thread: Series on Baccarat Winning Strategy - Second Liners

Baccarat Winning Strategy – Second Liners

Let us start our Series on Baccarat Winning Strategy by contributions from all, ok?


Can everyone please feel free to discuss on this topic or/and start another winning strategies on a new topic for discussion to benefit all, ok? More discussion mean better ideas.


Over here in Malaysia, Baccarat Players like to bet on Second Liners to win. This is when the game chops and then streaks on second decisions. Sometimes, on real streaky shoe, Third or even Fourth Liners are still good winning bets....


Example of a good Second Liners on both sides:
BBBPPBBPPBBPPBBPPBBPPBBPPPPBBBBPPPBBB…..


Example of a good Second & Third Liners on both sides:
BBBPPPBBBPPPBBBBPPPPPBBBBBPPPPP......

Example of a good Second Liners on Banker Side only:
BBpBBpBBpBBBpBBBpBBBBBBpBB.......


Some players think that when the game is streaky, the second liner is quite secure way to bet. Some players here only bet on second liners with or without progression to win. In fact, they think that the more streaky the shoe, the more secure the bets on Second Liners or even Third Liners ......


Winning Strategy on Second Liners:

Observe 10 hands for any possible happenings of second or even third liners.

Wait for game to chop and place bet on second decisions to streak.

BBBPPBBPPB Bet on B

B Win and wait for game to chop again.

P Game chops and bet on P for Second Liner only or even Third Liners if the previous trends is favorable.

P Win repeat as above


Winning Strategy on One Sided Second Liners:

BBpBBpBBpBBBpBBBpBBBBBBpBB.......


Bet on the Banker Side only and on the second decisions.


Winning Strategy on Uneven Second Liners:

BBppBBppBpppbbpbbbpbpppbbbpbbbppb.....

We may want to use a progression to ensure winnings for us, provided the Second Liners are liable trends.

I personally like 1, 3, 7, 15 to maximum of 4 or even 5 steps. Some use it only to maximum of 2 - 3 steps. Others do not like progression at all. It is all up to you!

BBppBBppBpppbbpbbbpbpppbbbpbbbppb.....

BBppBBppBp (Observing 10 decisions for Second Liner indication, this is better but it is optional and it is all up to you!)
P win +1 wait for next chop
p No bet
b Chop, so bet on b again
b Win +2, wait for next chop
p No bet, chop so bet on second liner P
B Lose, +1, chop, so bet 3 units on progression on B
B Win, +4
B No bet, wait for chop
p chop, bet same 1 unit for p
b lose, +3, chop, bet 3 units on progression on b
B Win, +6


Personally, I think since the casino use system to ensure their winnings (banker commission, bet limits, etc) and to handicap us, we must use even better system to ensure our winnings and handicap the casino for our winnings. Like, progression, taking our wins, selective bettings, money management, etc.

Good Luck and Happy Winning to all!!!



Best & Kind Regards,
JohnMalaysia

John, please allow me to interpret for the Americans. You are using a horizontal Asian card. Most, but not all here use a vertical card.

First liners are betting opposites, that ones will stay one.
Second liners bet ones will go to 2 but no further.
Third liners bet 1's go to 2 and 2's go to 3 but no further.
Etc. Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by Ellis

John, please allow me to interpret for the Americans. You are using a horizontal Asian card. Most, but not all here use a vertical card.

Thank you Uncle, for the card explanation to us Americans! We never seen no vertical card down here in Tunica!

Anyway. . .that's an okay way to play/guess at the game. Ultimately there are as many repeats as 1's so in the end we have a 50-50 game. But. . . if we look for games with a dearth of 1's (i.e. streaky) we will have more luck at winning more FLT (Follow Last Time) then not. This could work in games that have a considerable more decisions on a side too. Naturally the side, (P or B) with more decisions will necessarily have more repeats.

We could also try to stop betting and hope the 1's come together a lot so then our repeats will outnumber our 1's by "groups." the only problem with this is that every 1's run (chop) ends in a repeat and we miss that one so it kind of evens out.

If we watch the tote board we can just wait for streaky games to repeat or, conversely, bet the chops iin the same way for choppy games.

I'm quite sure one could win many shoes in a row with a little MM.

Archer

Right Archer. That's why I said "but not all". And I fully agree with the rest of your post. I didn't know you played Tunica. We'll have to play together some time. We probably already have. I'll buy you a Scotch or whatever. We could argue over it. Ha!

BTW, I'm sure you noticed the horizontal toteboards at Horseshoe???

Hi Ellis,
It is nice of you to participate in my ‘Series on Baccarat Winning Strategy – Second Liners’.
Yes, your explanation on the Second Liners did help to explain better. At least, it did to our fellow member, Archer. Thanks for your American perspective.
I was in Las Vegas last year for the International Furniture Show and visited most casinos on the Strip and Freemont Street. I did not see many Baccarat tables there compare to our Malaysian casino where Baccarat has evolved to be the No.1 favorite game with many Baccarat tables. I actually did play the American Craps by selecting the table with the loudest winning noises and bet along with the winners without having any clue of the game at all. I even had a chance to throw on the dice. To me Las Vegas is the best in the world. It is real amazing. My dream would be selling Malaysian furniture at the World Market Center & Pavilions at days and playing Baccarat at nights in Las Vegas for the next few years.
For your information, the Singapore casino shall be operating next month, January 2010. There are only two group of casino, namely the Malaysian Genting Group and the American Golden Sands. I wonder if you ever play at the Malaysian casino. If you ever want to come here, please send me a private message so that I can send you my personal contact numbers. We would then be having some great Malaysian foods and beat the Malaysian casino. On the gambling side, I would be your follower. So, why don’t you get a team here soon, ok?
Ellis, I know you are a co-founder of BTC and a professional player. By the way, forgive me for asking as I am a bit confused on your actual role here. Which is your dominant role here at this forum, co-founder of BTC or Baccaratforums member?
I do not mean to start any argument as I have had enough in my family already. I am sorry over what have happened between you and Garnabby. I am certainly neutral on the issues and prefer not to read or hear on any dissension as it can be quite stressful on me.
If your dominant role here is being a Baccaratforums member, then may I ask you to contribute on my ‘Series on Baccarat Winning Strategy’ to benefit all our members, by starting on a new thread or topic to teach us on some of your best Baccarat Winning Strategy, ok?
I have already done and stand by ‘Baccarat Winning Strategy – Streaky Shoe’ and ‘Baccarat Winning Strategy – Dominant Shoe’. These shall be on for discussion when the time is appropriate in order to benefit our Baccaratforums. It would be nice to learn from you on Baccarat Winning Strategy on other topics and I am very sure with your caliber, you certainly have a lot to offer to our members. I need more people to contribute on my series on Baccarat Winning Strategy, especially with a new thread. I think you would be one of the best persons to share with us your winning strategy, ok, please? Buddy?
Hi Archer,
I appreciated your participation and what you have said made a lot of sense to me. Thanks a lot, buddy.

Originally Posted by JohnMalaysia

Hi Ellis,

Ellis, I know you are a co-founder of BTC and a professional player. By the way, forgive me for asking as I am a bit confused on your actual role here. Which is your dominant role here at this forum, co-founder of BTC or Baccaratforums member?

I do not mean to start any argument as I have had enough in my family already.

LOL - I am NOT laughing at you John - or anybody. I know you are sincere - just that the above sounds humorous. It's a second language thing.

Your question is an easy one since it simply deals with whether or not a decision on P or B will then repeat or not. The answer not so easy! A few ways possible:

1. Keep track of card values?
2. Look at previous patterns?
3. Follow last shoe because shoes usually repeat?
4. Look for advantage bias (related to pattern)?
5. Pray, wear a good luck charm, guess?

This is the age old question isn't it? Ellis states he knows how to do this. Perhaps he will weigh in.

One way to do this would be to look at groups of repeats vs. non-repeats. If the repeats out number the non repeat groups bet for repeat, stop if you lose and wait for another repeat to end then bet the next decision to repeat. Because in a streaky shoe there will be more repeat groups then single groups and repeats will follow repeats more often than not.

So PPP B P B PPP BBBB 3 repeats 1 group of singles. Bet for repeat as long as repeats outnumber singles. You could also do this side independent. Bet for repeat on the side that has more repeats.

Archer

Originally Posted by JohnMalaysia

Hi Ellis,
It is nice of you to participate in my ‘Series on Baccarat Winning Strategy – Second Liners’.
Yes, your explanation on the Second Liners did help to explain better. At least, it did to our fellow member, Archer. Thanks for your American perspective.
I was in Las Vegas last year for the International Furniture Show and visited most casinos on the Strip and Freemont Street. I did not see many Baccarat tables there compare to our Malaysian casino where Baccarat has evolved to be the No.1 favorite game with many Baccarat tables. I actually did play the American Craps by selecting the table with the loudest winning noises and bet along with the winners without having any clue of the game at all. I even had a chance to throw on the dice. To me Las Vegas is the best in the world. It is real amazing. My dream would be selling Malaysian furniture at the World Market Center & Pavilions at days and playing Baccarat at nights in Las Vegas for the next few years.
For your information, the Singapore casino shall be operating next month, January 2010. There are only two group of casino, namely the Malaysian Genting Group and the American Golden Sands. I wonder if you ever play at the Malaysian casino. If you ever want to come here, please send me a private message so that I can send you my personal contact numbers. We would then be having some great Malaysian foods and beat the Malaysian casino. On the gambling side, I would be your follower. So, why don’t you get a team here soon, ok?
Ellis, I know you are a co-founder of BTC and a professional player. By the way, forgive me for asking as I am a bit confused on your actual role here. Which is your dominant role here at this forum, co-founder of BTC or Baccaratforums member?
I do not mean to start any argument as I have had enough in my family already. I am sorry over what have happened between you and Garnabby. I am certainly neutral on the issues and prefer not to read or hear on any dissension as it can be quite stressful on me.
If your dominant role here is being a Baccaratforums member, then may I ask you to contribute on my ‘Series on Baccarat Winning Strategy’ to benefit all our members, by starting on a new thread or topic to teach us on some of your best Baccarat Winning Strategy, ok?
I have already done and stand by ‘Baccarat Winning Strategy – Streaky Shoe’ and ‘Baccarat Winning Strategy – Dominant Shoe’. These shall be on for discussion when the time is appropriate in order to benefit our Baccaratforums. It would be nice to learn from you on Baccarat Winning Strategy on other topics and I am very sure with your caliber, you certainly have a lot to offer to our members. I need more people to contribute on my series on Baccarat Winning Strategy, especially with a new thread. I think you would be one of the best persons to share with us your winning strategy, ok, please? Buddy?
Hi Archer,
I appreciated your participation and what you have said made a lot of sense to me. Thanks a lot, buddy.

Hi John, nice hearing from you again and so refreshing to see a mature, well constructed post. I'll reply PM. Thanks!

Originally Posted by JohnMalaysia

Baccarat Winning Strategy – Second Liners

Let us start our Series on Baccarat Winning Strategy by contributions from all, ok?


Can everyone please feel free to discuss on this topic or/and start another winning strategies on a new topic for discussion to benefit all, ok? More discussion mean better ideas.


Over here in Malaysia, Baccarat Players like to bet on Second Liners to win. This is when the game chops and then streaks on second decisions. Sometimes, on real streaky shoe, Third or even Fourth Liners are still good winning bets....


Example of a good Second Liners on both sides:
BBBPPBBPPBBPPBBPPBBPPBBPPPPBBBBPPPBBB…..


Example of a good Second & Third Liners on both sides:
BBBPPPBBBPPPBBBBPPPPPBBBBBPPPPP......

Example of a good Second Liners on Banker Side only:
BBpBBpBBpBBBpBBBpBBBBBBpBB.......


Some players think that when the game is streaky, the second liner is quite secure way to bet. Some players here only bet on second liners with or without progression to win. In fact, they think that the more streaky the shoe, the more secure the bets on Second Liners or even Third Liners ......


Winning Strategy on Second Liners:

Observe 10 hands for any possible happenings of second or even third liners.

Wait for game to chop and place bet on second decisions to streak.

BBBPPBBPPB Bet on B

B Win and wait for game to chop again.

P Game chops and bet on P for Second Liner only or even Third Liners if the previous trends is favorable.

P Win repeat as above


Winning Strategy on One Sided Second Liners:

BBpBBpBBpBBBpBBBpBBBBBBpBB.......


Bet on the Banker Side only and on the second decisions.


Winning Strategy on Uneven Second Liners:

BBppBBppBpppbbpbbbpbpppbbbpbbbppb.....

We may want to use a progression to ensure winnings for us, provided the Second Liners are liable trends.

I personally like 1, 3, 7, 15 to maximum of 4 or even 5 steps. Some use it only to maximum of 2 - 3 steps. Others do not like progression at all. It is all up to you!

BBppBBppBpppbbpbbbpbpppbbbpbbbppb.....

BBppBBppBp (Observing 10 decisions for Second Liner indication, this is better but it is optional and it is all up to you!)
P win +1 wait for next chop
p No bet
b Chop, so bet on b again
b Win +2, wait for next chop
p No bet, chop so bet on second liner P
B Lose, +1, chop, so bet 3 units on progression on B
B Win, +4
B No bet, wait for chop
p chop, bet same 1 unit for p
b lose, +3, chop, bet 3 units on progression on b
B Win, +6


Personally, I think since the casino use system to ensure their winnings (banker commission, bet limits, etc) and to handicap us, we must use even better system to ensure our winnings and handicap the casino for our winnings. Like, progression, taking our wins, selective bettings, money management, etc.

Good Luck and Happy Winning to all!!!



Best & Kind Regards,
JohnMalaysia

John

Your second liner pattern will make good money in long run with a good progression along with it.Bet until a pattern starting to change and follow up the pattern( if you know what im talking about).For me I like to 'follow with the wind'.With a good progression along make some quick money and out of the casino ASAP( hit and run).Most important try to follow with a streak rather then oppsite the streak(alot of gamblers tends to opssite the streak) I would rather win afew more hands following it then losing afew more hands to the casino before I lose 1 bet when the streak comes towards the end.Who know the streak will come into a 16banker with good progression you make alot of chips on that streak alone.

john,

i believe you have presented a good strategy---one which is very similar to strategies i have used . Matched with a good money management system it could be a money maker.

Hi Georgia,

Thanks for your sharing. Second Liners is one of the best winning strategies commonly practise by every Ah Kow, Ah Meng and Ah Huat in Malaysia. My elder brother was one of the common Chinese Malaysian Ah Kow.

I think when you see second liners start to repeat, it is best to Fibo your bets or add a progression you like. Do take precaution with Lose 2, wait for next win to resume as 1's would be the only killers.

I have won some long runs of TT on Second Liners, 16 in the runs! Some 3's, 4's, and so on.

So, what does every Tom, Dick and Harry in the States uses as a common winning strategies?

John, I drew up a short history of the casino side of Baccarat in the U.S. in a post I called Old Timer Stuff on one of the recent threads here. But let me do the same for the player and systems side.

Baccarat came to Las Vegas first from France in the mid '70s. The only thing players had to go by was a short chapter in a Frank Barstow book called "The fastest Game In Town" published by my friend Lyle Stewart. Barstow took a very basic view of Baccarat saying your only choice was to play Opposites or Repeats and watch for shortages in any of the events like 2s or 3s etc and bet they would catch up. He did do a decent job of explaining the Bank advantage.

By the late '70s Baccarat was introduced in Atlantic City. At first, there were no Asians in the game, except maybe a dealer and it was solely 8 reused decks, 14 player tables. We didn't have the terms Big Bac and Mini Bac yet because there was only one Bac.

The only system known at that time was TB4L and most every player played some version of it. We also knew about Fibonacis. At that time I was following the game in a Baccarat column I wrote for Blackjack Confidential magazine edited and published by Eddy Olsen, a Pulitzer (sp?)prize winning Reporter for The Philidelphia Enquirer.

Then the Asians descended on the game with their strange horizontal score cards and their stranger system. They befriended me immediately and I quickly learned their system. If most of the 1's were going to 2, thats what you bet. If most of them weren't, thats what you bet. If most of the 2s were going to 3, thats what you bet. If they weren't, thats what you bet and so on up the line.

Unfortunately I published this system in my third Baccarat book calling it The Asian System. This was the worst system I ever published. It was so bad you were far better off to bet dead against it. It was directly responsible for the biggest loss I ever incurred in Baccarat and I quickly pulled those books off the shelves. I went back to my Asian friends questioningly. "Well Professor - that's what they called me, - you didn't ask if we won, you only asked how we played. We don't win with it either!"

That's when I decided I was better off figuring out my own systems. I also learned another lesson - Never take anything for granted. That's how it was, heading West.

Originally Posted by Ellis

The only thing players had to go by was a short chapter in a Frank Barstow book called "The fastest Game In Town" published by my friend Lyle Stewart. Barstow took a very basic view of Baccarat saying your only choice was to play Opposites or Repeats and watch for shortages in any of the events like 2s or 3s etc and bet they would catch up. He did do a decent job of explaining the Bank advantage.

To avoid leading players astray here I need to quickly point out that you should NOT attempt the above! When an event is short in a shoe it tends to remain that way. Do NOT bet that events will "catch up". The exact opposite usually occurs. Whatever is abnormal about a shoe tends to stay abnormal for the remainder of that shoe. Yes, everything EVENTUALLY catches up to its normal frequency of occurrence - over the course of MANY shoes but single shoes NEVER exactly follow the norm. They do the exact opposite. The fact is that Barstow was even more of a beginner than we are.

I didn't really have anything more to add. Just getting this thread back up top.