Thread: Analysis of Ellis' Latest Trip Report at Gold Strike

Ellis wrote,

"Trip Report 9/27-30/09
Casino: Gold Strike, Tunica, MS

5 of us went, all 5 won!

PJ won 21 out of 21 shoes playing SKOR Overlay.
I won 16 out of 16 playing SKOR Overlay. I also beat every BJ table in the casino.
Paul won 12 out of 16 playing Basic SKOR with a highest loss of -7.
Bill, won 15 out of 20 playing mostly Basic SKOR 2Hi
Thurstle won strictly playing Poker.

Very Important. Our higest bet ever was 2 units! Mostly we bet 1 unit.

I'm going to tell you flat out. No other group of players from any other site could even come close to our record. And this is our 2nd trip in a row where EVERYONE won! The first trip was to Vegas and 15 out of 15 members won!

Luck has NOTHING to do with winning 21 out of 21. You MUST know what you are doing. We DO!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, even assuming a cheater's edge of 75% over each shoe (, and that the 1-2 progression would be negligible over this many games)...

the chance of only this event alone is about:

[(3/4) exp (21 + 16)] X [(16 choose 12) X ((3/4) exp 12) X ((1/4) exp 4)] X [(20 choose 15) X ((3/4) exp 15) X ((1/4) exp 5)]

= 0.000023837831494251845 X 0.22519906517118215 X 0.2023311518569244

= 0.000001085876941679393 .



That's about 1 out of every 920,915 attempts.

Yep, Ellis & "group of 4" did it on the first try! I guess that's because they're really hitting about 88% of the shoes? No, i purposely lowered that "rate" a bit to allow for the added lesser likelihoods of also Thurstle's "big" achievement, and Ellis' "beating every bj-table in the casino"... not to mention the "15 winners of the 15 persons" who went on his last trip with him. (Now i'm wondering if there were even 15. Of course were i winning like that, i'd still be there. That's the thing with Ellis, he tells such big lies that one has to constantly remember to always question every thing he writes.)

No wonder none of his "group" ever publically posts their own results, except for the few who post after only 3 or 4 full shoes. (One usually intuitively knows that to make such claims is to admit to being a liar and cheater). Like i said on his board before when only one member there (Wolfat) publically supported Ellis over the long-term, "Most persons are mostly-honest most of the time."



(Not proofed. So let me know about any mistakes... and try it for yourself with just the 0.88 rate.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
The mathematical notation is as follows:

1. n choose r = n!/[(n-r)! X r!].

2. m! = m X (m - 1) X (m - 2) X (m - 3) X .... 3 X 2 X 1.



Eg, 16 choose 12 = 16!/[(16 - 12)!12!] = (16 X 15 X 14 X 13)/(4 X 3 X 2 X 1) = 1820.

You really got a thing for Ellis, G! Don't forget I was banned by the man, too. Gamblers are notorious liars. Anecdotal I know but I only once in all my years met a gambler who wasn't either "up a little bit" or "about even." I don't go there. If someone says he wins I let it go. It's irrelevant to me whether they are bs or not. Now take GTG for instance. (sorry GTG - nothing personal - I don't NOT believe your winning ways). Correct me if I am wrong but GTG has basically stated that the only times he loses a shoe is when he pays more attention to the waitresses ass (my embellishment) then the cards and makes a mistake by not following the method he is using. Are we to call him out as well? So my opinion is to not spend time trying to prove that someone else is winning or not - an exercise in futiity.

Either we have or can develop a way to win that is corroborated by mathematical analysis or we don't. If someone has a method that they say can win but doesn't allow it to be independently corroborated we should just move on. Find a method of our own.

Ellis, the showman, has made a lot of statements that I have taken him to task for. Some of them pretty outrageous, lol. But Ellis, the system designer, has made it clear (albeit not clear enough) that all of his systems work when they work but one needs to change and play another way when the situation presents itself. IOW, there is no mechanical static method that works on every shoe all the time. One needs to introduce some sort of trigger, reversal, MM, whatever to consistently win. Frankly, I agree with this and that is where we as a group should be spending our energies.

Archer

Originally Posted by Archer

Either we have or can develop a way to win that is corroborated by mathematical analysis or we don't. If someone has a method that they say can win but doesn't allow it to be independently corroborated we should just move on. Find a method of our own.

True, but someone has to (first) show the math. And this only took 15 minutes of my time, to COMPLETELY discredit ANY mathematical ability on his part.

Originally Posted by Archer

But Ellis, the system designer, has made it clear (albeit not clear enough) that all of his systems work when they work but one needs to change and play another way when the situation presents itself.

"Clear as mud".

Originally Posted by Archer

...where we as a group should be spending our energies.

I always put our group ahead of the others... but it became personal when Ellis banned me for no good reason, leaving me unable to respond to his personal attacks there.

About 3 months ago, I went to Ellis site, registered for the free site, and posted a question to "Keith" as to what was the best method to use, to gain the 500.00 from playing at the casino. I got a very terse and short quipped answer to "ask someone from the free forum" and sadly, NO ONE ANSWERED. My conclusion was, if this is the type of help and community that is provided with that group, then there is no way I will pay for that. Yet it is touted as being so friendly and everyone helps everyone. I might be the exception to their potential customer service......but....needless to say, it was a cold, rude, and could care response that I got. So in return, I could care less about joining a group with that blatent lack of help, concern, or customer service.

He is a good salesman if you say you are the worlds best baccarat player enough you will have people believing you eventually plus say you have an IQ of 3000 you know the old story bout mud sticking If you put on your profile professioal bac player certain people will listen


All his methods and types are subjective he has not one mechanical systerm that works for all occassions that is why he has a group the study the methods and try tweak them to make them win

If you go back few years ago when the original twister come out that was the bees knees he had people saying oh we won last night with it blah blah i looked at it and within a few shoes it lost so in order to stop complaints he said oh we have others you need to use these in certain conditions look at the wash blah blah the wash makes a dfifference

Then he says oh the casinos orchestrate their shoes Thats a very technical term for cheating now I have played baccarat and they are hand shuffled and one of the players cut the cards now depending on the cut cards is how many cards the dealers burns at the beginning of the shoe one card could make a difference on the flow on the deck being choppy or streaky or somewhere in between rchestrate for that

He charge 500 bux for people to help fix his crappy systems where you have originally bought something you thught won in the first place

What I dont get is why he charges for his flavour of the month systems? Why not post it for everyone and let people improve it? One gets much more out of giving than charging people for a system that basically bets up 1 unit when he loses and down 1 unit when he wins. Big deal. Win 50% of your bets and show a profit and look like a gifted genius. There has to be something better than this.user-another user

Originally Posted by Archer

Now take GTG for instance. (sorry GTG - nothing personal - I don't NOT believe your winning ways). Correct me if I am wrong but GTG has basically stated that the only times he loses a shoe is when he pays more attention to the waitresses ass (my embellishment) then the cards and makes a mistake by not following the method he is using. Are we to call him out as well? So my opinion is to not spend time trying to prove that someone else is winning or not - an exercise in futiity.
Archer

In reference to the quote above by ARCHER, allow me to accentuate what I said ... "If I am distracted momentarily by a WAITRESS dropping off a drink, ANOTHER PLAYER asking a question immediately after a hand decision was made, a CASINO FLOOR PERSON asking me if I want a COMP, just anything at a specific moment and MARK my SCORECARD incorrectly, which I do from time to time (admit it, you've all done that too!), AND it occurs after a LOSS SERIES of FIVE hands and I am waiting for my BET PLACEMENT STRATEGY to tell me when to RE-ENTER and I re-enter too early or too late because of this distraction and having mis-marked my scorecard, that MAY cause me to lose a few units in a shoe, but that is RARE!"

That having been said, I have been honest with all my commentaries, and I do submit to all the membership, that IF you go to the table with a SOLID Playing Strategy, a SAFE and SANE Betting Strategy, place controls in for "TRIGGERS" to EXIT the game i.e. WIN Goal acheived, R.O.W. loss limit trigger was pulled, OR finally, you have lost two series of (5) losses back to back then exit, you will WIN most of the time. I think at some point I will perform a DEMONSTRATION in Las Vegas for those of you in doubt, you will see me do it again, and again, and that will place this issue to rest. I totally understand folks not believing this, and I am NOT offended, but hey, I am putting the best I have out here for you, it is always your choice to believe or disbelieve! The truth is in my opinion, most gamblers have NO controls over themselves, NO strategies, NO Triggers to indicate when to get up after WINNING or LOSING certain amounts, just plain NO discipline employed, NO strategy, NOTHING! Look, if you want to be successful "Gambling" you have to be DISCIPLINED and there is just no way around that fact ... that's it, period! I try to be VERY "Methodical" about my play at the tables, I have a VERY SPECIAL SCORECARD I developed for play to assist me in always being aware of what is happening in the shoe and where I am relative to all my "Triggers." Once again, as I have said before, there is NO "Silver Bullet" System, NO "MECHANICAL SUPER SYSTEM" that will conquer each and every shoe, it does NOT exist! Begin to use DISCIPLINE, EXIT Triggers ... and be profitable!

I really think that if most of you whom are looking for that "NIRVANA SYSTEM" place the equivolent focus on developing your own methods, learn discipline, and develop rules for entry and exit into or out of game (Triggers), you will make a much better use of your time and begin your journey to wealth!

Originally Posted by Grab The Gold

In reference to the quote above by ARCHER, allow me to accentuate what I said ... "If I am distracted momentarily by a WAITRESS dropping off a drink, ANOTHER PLAYER asking a question, A CASINO FLOORPERSON asking me if I want a COMP, just anything at a specific moment and MARK my SCORECARD incorrectly, which I do from time to time (admit it, you've done that too!), AND it occurs after a LOSS SERIES of FIVE hands and I am waiting for my BET PLACEMENT STRATEGY to tell me when to RE-ENTER and I re-enter too early or too late because of this distraction and having mis-marked my scorecard, that MAY cause me to lose a few units in a shoe, but that is RARE!"

That having been said, I have been honest with all my commentaries, and I do submit to all the membership, that IF you go to the table with a SOLID Playing Strategy, a SAFE and SANE Betting Strategy, place controls in for "TRIGGERS" to EXIT the game i.e. WIN Goal acheived, R.O.W. loss limit trigger was pulled, OR finally, you have lost two series of (5) losses back to back then exit, you will WIN most of the time. I think at some point I will perform a DEMONSTRATION in Las Vegas for those of you in doubt, you will see me do it again, and again, and that will place this issue to rest. I totally understand folks not believing this, but hey, I am putting the best I have out here for you, it is always your choice to believe or disbelieve! The truth is in my opinion, most gamblers have NO controls over themselves, NO strategies, NO Triggers to indicate when to get up after WINNING or LOSING certain amounts, just plain NO discipline employed, NO strategy, NOTHING! If you want to be successful "Gambling" you have to be DISCIPLINED and there is just no way around that fact ... period! I happen to be VERY "Methodical" about my play at the tables, I have a VERY SPECIAL SCORECARD I developed for play to assist me in always being aware of what is happenning in the shoe and where I am relative to all my "Triggers." Once again, as I have said before, there is NO "Silver Bullet" System, NO "MECHANICAL SUPER SYSTEM" that willl conquer each and every shoe, it does NOT exist! Use DISCIPLINE, EXIT Triggers ... and be profitable!

I really think that if most of you whom are looking for that NIRVANA SYSTEM place the equivolent focus on developing your own methods, learn discipline and develop rules for entry and exit into or out of game, you will make a much better use of your time!

No I just want something that wins more than it loses and is worth your time at the tables not much to ask but hell of a lot to attain

Originally Posted by Grab The Gold

In reference to the quote above by ARCHER, allow me to accentuate what I said ... "If I am distracted momentarily by a WAITRESS dropping off a drink, ANOTHER PLAYER asking a question immediately after a hand decision was made, a CASINO FLOOR PERSON asking me if I want a COMP, just anything at a specific moment and MARK my SCORECARD incorrectly, which I do from time to time (admit it, you've all done that too!), AND it occurs after a LOSS SERIES of FIVE hands and I am waiting for my BET PLACEMENT STRATEGY to tell me when to RE-ENTER and I re-enter too early or too late because of this distraction and having mis-marked my scorecard, that MAY cause me to lose a few units in a shoe, but that is RARE!"

Sometimes I am quick to read posts and don't get the whole meaning. I was under the impression from your previous posts that you never lost a shoe other than normal human error for whatever reason. But now I see that you do lose shoes from time to time.

That having been said, I have been honest with all my commentaries, and I do submit to all the membership, that IF you go to the table with a SOLID Playing Strategy, a SAFE and SANE Betting Strategy, place controls in for "TRIGGERS" to EXIT the game i.e. WIN Goal acheived, R.O.W. loss limit trigger was pulled, OR finally, you have lost two series of (5) losses back to back then exit, you will WIN most of the time. I think at some point I will perform a DEMONSTRATION in Las Vegas for those of you in doubt, you will see me do it again, and again, and that will place this issue to rest. I totally understand folks not believing this, and I am NOT offended, but hey, I am putting the best I have out here for you, it is always your choice to believe or disbelieve!

I haven't read anyone saying the did NOT believe your success at the tables. It may help if you were to make a specific statement as to percentage of shoes won and units won per shoe. Evidently these would be exceptional numbers and as such would gain the interest of the membership. As far as a demonstration goes you could do a demo right here for the group. Why wait to go to LV?

The truth is in my opinion, most gamblers have NO controls over themselves, NO strategies, NO Triggers to indicate when to get up after WINNING or LOSING certain amounts, just plain NO discipline employed, NO strategy, NOTHING! Look, if you want to be successful "Gambling" you have to be DISCIPLINED and there is just no way around that fact ... that's it, period! I try to be VERY "Methodical" about my play at the tables, I have a VERY SPECIAL SCORECARD I developed for play to assist me in always being aware of what is happening in the shoe and where I am relative to all my "Triggers." Once again, as I have said before, there is NO "Silver Bullet" System, NO "MECHANICAL SUPER SYSTEM" that will conquer each and every shoe, it does NOT exist! Begin to use DISCIPLINE, EXIT Triggers ... and be profitable!

Here, here! Most gamblers gamble for action, not money. There is no silver bullet method. There are, however, good ways to play and bad ways to play. Playing a Martingale is an example of a bad way to play.

I really think that if most of you whom are looking for that "NIRVANA SYSTEM" place the equivolent focus on developing your own methods, learn discipline, and develop rules for entry and exit into or out of game (Triggers), you will make a much better use of your time and begin your journey to wealth!

Everyone has there own comfort and risk level. But I think the criteria is always going to be ROI (units or dollars/hour) and shoe win percentage.

Archer

GradTheGold, where do you play, if you don't mind me asking.

When in Las Vegas, I found the BEST action for ME is at the Green Valley Ranch Hotel & Casino OR the Southpoint Hotel & Casino.

Interesting in that I have never heard of those places. I love learning new things and new places. I will check them out the next time I am out there. If anyone comes to Florida, check out the seminole hard rock casino in tampa. Good bac games, with 25.oo min. and on weekends 50.oo min. No competition for them, as they are the only game in town.

littogage,

The Hard Rock Seminole casino in Immokalee has $10 baccarat tables all day and night. If you're planning on a lot of play and don't mind the drive to the middle of nowhere, it's worth the effort.

They also have at least two $5 blackjack tables but I don't play the game so I offer that only as information.

AD

Thank you ADulay. I didn't know the table bets there, were less than in tampa. And thanks to you sir, now I do know, and I genuinely appreciate the good and helpful information.

Originally Posted by natural9

He is a good salesman if you say you are the worlds best baccarat player enough you will have people believing you eventually plus say you have an IQ of 3000 you know the old story bout mud sticking If you put on your profile professioal bac player certain people will listen


All his methods and types are subjective he has not one mechanical systerm that works for all occassions that is why he has a group the study the methods and try tweak them to make them win

If you go back few years ago when the original twister come out that was the bees knees he had people saying oh we won last night with it blah blah i looked at it and within a few shoes it lost so in order to stop complaints he said oh we have others you need to use these in certain conditions look at the wash blah blah the wash makes a dfifference

Then he says oh the casinos orchestrate their shoes Thats a very technical term for cheating now I have played baccarat and they are hand shuffled and one of the players cut the cards now depending on the cut cards is how many cards the dealers burns at the beginning of the shoe one card could make a difference on the flow on the deck being choppy or streaky or somewhere in between rchestrate for that

He charge 500 bux for people to help fix his crappy systems where you have originally bought something you thught won in the first place

O.k. For me to say this does not mean that I am an Ellis fan or guy. The only thing that is interesting is that i have yet to come across someone who has paid his 500 bucks to btc and to state that he has regretted in doing so.

Originally Posted by joshky

O.k. For me to say this does not mean that I am an Ellis fan or guy. The only thing that is interesting is that i have yet to come across someone who has paid his 500 bucks to btc and to state that he has regretted in doing so.

joshky,

Who, other than the obvious shills over there, has written otherwise? You may want to look up a guy named "See Jerek" (over in Malaysia) who had posted at VLS about his grandparents going w/o food so he could feed the baby... and who then posted in Ellis' mail-box, "Please uncle Ellis, i'm giving gambling one more chance, teach me how to be a winner." I haven't seen hide nor hair of him on any of these boards for months.

Ellis has a lot of useless systems, and promises to make those work... and erases the complainers, critics, and facts. This IS only the start of what you're asking, of the natural unraveling of such ("cultish") frenzy-like things. ("New paid-members! ==> The systems work! ==> New paid members! ==> ... .") It just took a few years, exactly like any other "cult".

Anything you want of Ellis' has been mathematically or otherwise DISPROVED. Take the time to read the posts here and there about him. He's a TOTAL FRAUD. And the biggest COWARD on any of these boards.

Here's something breaking as we speak, from a full-member over there... Ellis, this isn't over! - Beat The Casino Forums "Where The Pros Are" .

10-09-2009, 02:19 PM #1 (permalink) justtryingtomakeit
Universal Bac Player

Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 14
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Rep Power: 0


Ellis, this isn't over!
Hey Genius Boy,

Heike proved that it did work, so what are you talking about? It doesn't matter if she didn't like the progression or not! Second, I didn't refuse to refund anything. She understood the terms of our agreement and then tried to go against it afterwards. I never said that I wouldn't refund anything, but when people try to get something for nothing, it rubs me the wrong way. You of all people, should know that.

And speaking of credibility, judging from what people all over the internet, and on this very forum, are saying about you, your credibility has been SHOT for years. So DO NOT GO THERE.

I could also careless if you know Heike or not. Neither one of you knows me, and I do not know either one of you. Both, You and Heike can kiss my ass. How's that for immature? And who do I owe money to? I never tried to start my own website, because I'm not interested in one.

You speak about how you've heard it all before, right? Well, at least what I'm not the one sending people on a never ending, wild goose chase, providing them with multiple systems THAT NEVER WORK. Stop it please, I've spoken to people that have been to your seminars and claim to have caught you in lies. I've spoken to all sorts of people that ARE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE, LIKE MYSELF, that want nothing else to do with you, because of the misleading information that you and your goons provide.

Look Mr. 160 IQ. I never planned on going here with you, but do not think that because you made a comment here, that I'm going to back down or something. Because that's not going to happen. I didn't want to bad-mouth your site, and screw with your business, but you are forcing my hand now. So, you can take whatever road you want to take after reading this.

The Ellis Facts quoted by the man himself

Analysis of Ellis' Latest Trip Report at Gold Strike

How's that for a little proof about the many BTC systems and the "not so" masterful Ellis. Yes, I remember garnabby, and yes, I'll admit that he may have been a bit of an asshole, but he definitely isn't wrong about YOU. And you're being an asshole now as well, so let's get assholeish, shall we?

Most people on this site, know good and well that your systems do not work, and yes, that includes Heike. But, after spending their money on the membership fee, they are too embarrassed to admit it to YOU. That's why so many people have came to me complaining, not to you. No, all of those people haven't brought the system from me, because they would like to see me play it first and I completely understand why, after having the wool pulled over their eyes so many times. And yes, I'll play it live for the person looking to buy it, before they spend a dime. I have nothing to hide, and I do not need a bunch of liars co-signing and exaggerating how my system works on my own forum, because selling systems for a living isn't my business, it's YOURS.

It's not like I'm some junior member, talking a bunch of shit for no reason. I'm a Universal Bac Player, that can easily see past the bullshit that you dish out to people. So, on that note, are you going to sit there and tell me that it's better to have a 2hi or 3hi system that doesn't really work at all? Where the names and concepts of your systems are constantly changing. In turn, confusing your members all around the board (with the exception of the few that always seems to win. But I guess those people are just that much more brilliant then everyone else who struggles with your systems, right?).

I have emails of complaints about you, that I could read off for days. Which the large majority were sent from members of this very site. And I'm the ridiculous one? Yeah right, look Houdini, I knew you were a master of illusions, but I didn't know that you were a comedian as well. And I wasn't going to say anything about your operation. But, since you want to get ugly, let's do it. What ever happened to all of your members that were so proactive with your systems from this time last year? Well, most of them lost faith in you, because MOST of them weren't getting the results that you claimed they would achieve. In fact, they were just flat out LOSING long term. It's funny how you give people just enough to keep them hanging on. Not me!

Only and idiot would call their customers names, right? Well, Doogie Howser, that's exactly what you did in your response to me. Try not to contradict yourself so often, because it has become a nasty habit of yours. So now where does this leave us? Either, refund me my membership fee, just like you had to do for SKpeters a few weeks ago (Since that's what legit people do right? And yes I know about the SKpeters situation). And ban me from the site, so that I cannot post anymore. Otherwise, we can go a million rounds just like this, if you want. I do not care anymore, if you want a battle of facts, I can go deeper than a Navy SEAL on things about you.

I TOLD YOU, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BATTLE WITH ME, I'M NOT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. YOU AND YOUR TEAM WILL DEFINITELY REGRET TRYING TO DISCREDIT ME, IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE LOW ROAD.

I JUST LOVE HOW YOU TRY TO SHUT PEOPLE OFF, WHEN THEY'RE EXPOSING YOU. I WONDER HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE YOU TO CLOSE THIS THREAD?
Last edited by justtryingtomakeit; 10-09-2009 at 02:23 PM.


************************************************** ***************

IN THE EVENT THIS THREAD IS DELETED OVER THERE... PM ME FOR THE ACTUAL, COMPLETE DOWNLOAD OF IT.

Originally Posted by garnabby

joshky,

Who, other than the obvious shills over there, has written otherwise? You may want to look up a guy named "See Jerek" (over in Malaysia) who had posted at VLS about his grandparents going w/o food so he could feed the baby... and who then posted in Ellis' mail-box, "Please uncle Ellis, i'm giving gambling one more chance, teach me how to be a winner." I haven't seen hide nor hair of him on any of these boards for months.

Ellis has a lot of useless systems, and promises to make those work... and erases the complainers, critics, and facts. This IS only the start of what you're asking, of the natural unraveling of such ("cultish") frenzy-like things. ("New paid-members! ==> The systems work! ==> New paid members! ==> ... .") It just took a few years, exactly like any other "cult".

Anything you want of Ellis' has been mathematically or otherwise DISPROVED. Take the time to read the posts here and there about him. He's a TOTAL FRAUD. And the biggest COWARD on any of these boards.

Here's something breaking as we speak, from a full-member over there... Ellis, this isn't over! - Beat The Casino Forums "Where The Pros Are" .

10-09-2009, 02:19 PM #1 (permalink) justtryingtomakeit
Universal Bac Player

Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 14
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Rep Power: 0


Ellis, this isn't over!
Hey Genius Boy,

Heike proved that it did work, so what are you talking about? It doesn't matter if she didn't like the progression or not! Second, I didn't refuse to refund anything. She understood the terms of our agreement and then tried to go against it afterwards. I never said that I wouldn't refund anything, but when people try to get something for nothing, it rubs me the wrong way. You of all people, should know that.

And speaking of credibility, judging from what people all over the internet, and on this very forum, are saying about you, your credibility has been SHOT for years. So DO NOT GO THERE.

I could also careless if you know Heike or not. Neither one of you knows me, and I do not know either one of you. Both, You and Heike can kiss my ass. How's that for immature? And who do I owe money to? I never tried to start my own website, because I'm not interested in one.

You speak about how you've heard it all before, right? Well, at least what I'm not the one sending people on a never ending, wild goose chase, providing them with multiple systems THAT NEVER WORK. Stop it please, I've spoken to people that have been to your seminars and claim to have caught you in lies. I've spoken to all sorts of people that ARE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE, LIKE MYSELF, that want nothing else to do with you, because of the misleading information that you and your goons provide.

Look Mr. 160 IQ. I never planned on going here with you, but do not think that because you made a comment here, that I'm going to back down or something. Because that's not going to happen. I didn't want to bad-mouth your site, and screw with your business, but you are forcing my hand now. So, you can take whatever road you want to take after reading this.

http:// baccaratforums . com/t6120/

http:// baccaratforums . com/t6147/

How's that for a little proof about the many BTC systems and the "not so" masterful Ellis. Yes, I remember garnabby, and yes, I'll admit that he may have been a bit of an asshole, but he definitely isn't wrong about YOU. And you're being an asshole now as well, so let's get assholeish, shall we?

Most people on this site, know good and well that your systems do not work, and yes, that includes Heike. But, after spending their money on the membership fee, they are too embarrassed to admit it to YOU. That's why so many people have came to me complaining, not to you. No, all of those people haven't brought the system from me, because they would like to see me play it first and I completely understand why, after having the wool pulled over their eyes so many times. And yes, I'll play it live for the person looking to buy it, before they spend a dime. I have nothing to hide, and I do not need a bunch of liars co-signing and exaggerating how my system works on my own forum, because selling systems for a living isn't my business, it's YOURS.

It's not like I'm some junior member, talking a bunch of shit for no reason. I'm a Universal Bac Player, that can easily see past the bullshit that you dish out to people. So, on that note, are you going to sit there and tell me that it's better to have a 2hi or 3hi system that doesn't really work at all? Where the names and concepts of your systems are constantly changing. In turn, confusing your members all around the board (with the exception of the few that always seems to win. But I guess those people are just that much more brilliant then everyone else who struggles with your systems, right?).

I have emails of complaints about you, that I could read off for days. Which the large majority were sent from members of this very site. And I'm the ridiculous one? Yeah right, look Houdini, I knew you were a master of illusions, but I didn't know that you were a comedian as well. And I wasn't going to say anything about your operation. But, since you want to get ugly, let's do it. What ever happened to all of your members that were so proactive with your systems from this time last year? Well, most of them lost faith in you, because MOST of them weren't getting the results that you claimed they would achieve. In fact, they were just flat out LOSING long term. It's funny how you give people just enough to keep them hanging on. Not me!

Only and idiot would call their customers names, right? Well, Doogie Howser, that's exactly what you did in your response to me. Try not to contradict yourself so often, because it has become a nasty habit of yours. So now where does this leave us? Either, refund me my membership fee, just like you had to do for SKpeters a few weeks ago (Since that's what legit people do right? And yes I know about the SKpeters situation). And ban me from the site, so that I cannot post anymore. Otherwise, we can go a million rounds just like this, if you want. I do not care anymore, if you want a battle of facts, I can go deeper than a Navy SEAL on things about you.

I TOLD YOU, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BATTLE WITH ME, I'M NOT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. YOU AND YOUR TEAM WILL DEFINITELY REGRET TRYING TO DISCREDIT ME, IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE LOW ROAD.

I JUST LOVE HOW YOU TRY TO SHUT PEOPLE OFF, WHEN THEY'RE EXPOSING YOU. I WONDER HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE YOU TO CLOSE THIS THREAD?
Last edited by justtryingtomakeit; 10-09-2009 at 02:23 PM.


************************************************** ***************

IN THE EVENT THIS THREAD IS DELETED OVER THERE... PM ME FOR THE ACTUAL, COMPLETE DOWNLOAD OF IT.

Now that's in the open.

Originally Posted by joshky

Now that's in the open.

Yes, and special thanks to the others involved in bringing some of these matters to my early attention. Eg, just yesterday, Ellis took down the entire "Other systems/ Casinos / Promotions" forum-section of his board, (from which the above article appeared.)

Second, after having obtained Ellis' latest Skor-system for baccarat, someone here offered to run a few simulations on it. Together with his results, and some other's by manually playing out a few sample shoes... the damn thing actually scored less than by guessing. Now i, myself, have not veirified those results, but i would stand by those... as nowhere near the 88% "kill rate". (Again, there isn't even the need to pay anything for any of his systems... most of we serious players have either long ago discarded all of those, or have found other channels for their acquisition.)

Anyway, a smart man always asks what you just did, joshky. I only wish i had even more to reply to tee kong kia, when i first publically ask these things about Ellis in the thread My Open Challenge to Ellis at Beat the Casino Forums .

Wow. This is all pretty sad . Yet I find myself reading every word of this soap opera.

Originally Posted by usernametaken

Wow. This is all pretty sad . Yet I find myself reading every word of this soap opera.

BUT THE SUCKERS JUST KEEP ON ROLLING IN...

Somebody ought to warn this guy, but don't expect it to do any good.

Hopefully, this is just another of Ellis' likely-fake members (in the slow periods over there)?


************************************************** *************
10-18-2009, 11:15 AM #19 (permalink) joeystyle
Junior Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1
Downloads: 3
Uploads: 0
Rep Power: 0


Re: I am new to this website (everybody please read)
Greetings

My name is Joe and I just enrolled to this website about three days ago. Like many of you who discovered this informative area on the internet, I have wondered over the past few days why I haven't been part of this group previously. I guess my googling skills need refinement.

To give you a better idea of who I am I would like to give all the members here an idea of my background. I am 48 year old Italain and a novice when it comes to playing baccarat live in a land based casino. My total experience is all of 30 shoes which has all come about the past 45 days during my treks out to Atlantic City. I live in the suburbs of New York City, so it takes me three hours to get there. Over the past several years I have purchased several casino gaming courses from Leonard Benson in Las Vegas. The game I enjoyed the most of all that the courses that he marketed was baccarat. I would test out his various gaming methods using online casinos. I actually did a dumb thing and play with real money and of course lose it. The reason why I played there because it was convenient and also my feeling intimidated by going to an actual casino. Over the past several weeks I have overcome the intimidation casino factor. The problem is I have discovered that of the baccarat courses I purchased from either Benson, or one from another Interet baccarat "guru" Dan Lewis (www.bacaratchaos.com, paid $1,150.00 USD for that beaute) actually work. I stop myself previously from purchasing another personal coaching baccarat course from Donald Tiggert (baccarat method, that was $2,500.00) didn't think he was genuine. Testimonals in the literature promoting these courses all glorify these methods with generating results of close to 10 units per shoe. In the past few days by reading a relative few threads here that the average loss per day of a baccarat player at a USA casino is about $500. I can certainly attest to that over the past 45 days. I consistently lose about that much each time I trek out to AC.

I truly want to work at becoming a professional baccarat player. I can devote going to a casino three full days a week at the present time. Would do more but I still need to work to support myself and build confidence that I can sustain earning a living playing a game I have grown to love. I have been devoting about 3-4 hours per day using dublinbet.com as practice vehicle for the courses I purchased. They did work out pretty well on that site but it didn't translate to positive results when I went to AC. I am not going to gripe anymore about what I paid for in other courses and the people that marketed them. No one told me to purchase them so it was all my choice. I just want all of you to know especially the principals of this website and the methods taught here, that I am a team player and I will really work hard in learning what you will teach me. You are the true professionals. I finally feel that I have found a "home" where I can reach out and communicate with others who have the same passion or even greater as I for this delicious game of baccarat. I love the idea that I will be taught how to properly diagnose the ongoing decisions of a shoe and apply the proper methods to conquer a casino. I will compare it to being an NFL quarterback who reads defenses constantly and then makes correct decisions based on what he saw. The fact that I will have an arsenal of sources rather than just one playing style which was either hit or miss (mostly miss) when I purchased the other courses makes me feel really positive for my future as a professional baccarat player. The abbreviations that I have been reading about briefly on these threads are throwing me off right now. I am stating straight out I will become a fully paid member within the next ten days. So please bare with me. I also promise not be annoyance with anyone who is willing to take time to answer my questions as I practice and go back out live casinos. If it all possible, I would like to be able to earn about $750- $1000 per day starting out. Then building my income base as I become a full fledged baccarat professional.

Hopefully, I haven't bored the hell out of you all. I just wanted to let you know who this person was that just became a member of this website. And as I said I will become a full paid member in about ten days. Whatever the re-occuring fees are for annual dues I wil pay because if I am not earning this type of money playing baccarat after I learn what I am being taught from you all, then I shouldn't be here in the first place.

Have an awesome Sunday to all!

Ciao
Joe
New York

Hey, Garnabby, You're welcome! Nobody over at BTC had the balls to expose Ellis. So I took the initiative in doing just that, from the inside out. Anyway, I personally think that you should have posted everything that I said to Ellis, Heike, Keith, and everybody else on that site during those arguments. Because the fact of the matter is, I have a playing method that works better than anything that Ellis has ever created, and he now knows this. Within a few days of him finding this out, he immediately shut down the "Casino System Ads" section, so that I couldn't offer it to anyone anymore. Once again, let the record stand, Ellis CLOSED DOWN THE CASINO ADS SECTION ON BTC BECAUSE OF ME, AND ME ONLY. I even told Ellis, that I wasn't trying to steal away any of his business, but he realized how bad the situation could have turned out for him, when he saw nimz0racer (another paid member, like myself) posting about how he was winning consistently with what he brought from me. Whether people believed me or not, I really don't give a f*ck at this point, because I'm not a system seller, nor a bullshit artist like Ellis. I'm a baccarat player, and apparently trying to help out other people was terrible mistake on my part. So, I'll let the losers take care of the losers, since most people seem to take such a liking towards Ellis away, no matter what they hear or read about him.

And usernametaken, seriously, how the hell is any of this sad? Is it sad that somebody is exposing a well known liar, that is constantly scamming people out of their money for a library of bullshit systems that NEVER WORK? Yes, it may be a "soap opera," but it damn sure isn't sad! It's called SHEDDING LIGHT ON THE TRUTH!

Hi

I am not a shill. I actually thought Ellis was a legit guy and his methods were proven to work. I was "enlightened" by a very decent human being on Monday afternoon that Ellis is a major mass marketer even though he professes not to be. His systems never really work and the results of his "casino trips" with the gang over there are not to be believed.

Thanks once again needs to be expressed to the person who brought this scam artist to my attention. I saved myself $500.00 plus all the money I would have lost playing his systems at a land based casino!!

Now does this sound like I am shill???

Ciao
Joe

Originally Posted by joeystyle

Hi

I am not a shill. I actually thought Ellis was a legit guy and his methods were proven to work. I was "enlightened" by a very decent human being on Monday afternoon that Ellis is a major mass marketer even though he professes not to be. His systems never really work and the results of his "casino trips" with the gang over there are not to be believed.

Thanks once again needs to be expressed to the person who brought this scam artist to my attention. I saved myself $500.00 plus all the money I would have lost playing his systems at a land based casino!!

Now does this sound like I am shill???

Ciao


Joe

joeystyle,

No, you're nobody's shill. Just another player sincerely trying to learn more about this crazy-but-alluring game.

And sorry to those i've been silently offending along the way. It's a touchy subject all the way around... but all of us have made all kinds of mistakes along the way.

This is a relatively new site, but there's lots of good stuff out in the open; and a few separate (private) groups springing up, under the "Community" tab, to "Social groups" icon. If you want to try those, PM the founder(s) to ask for an invitation.

Nothing is certain, but most of what Ellis is doing just doesn't seem to pan out, however one looks at it. But it's still useful and fun to study that stuff, like any of the other systems... and perhaps even worth the $500, were he to take an HONEST AND OPEN approach to researching, documenting, and presenting the material w/o an emphasis on sure-fire systems. It's a lot of work and cost to set all that up to every one's satisfaction. Maybe he just needs to find a new "angle" or "raison d'etre" (reason for being)... as with most types of games, in which the "old, abandoned (silly) strategies" become new again once the mathematics/physics, and players, have caught up to re-write those into potent analogs of.

Once a member told me that the "other private members" had talked him out of joining because it's a waste of time and money. All they do in there is rehashing the old system and tweaking them.

Originally Posted by lilochik

Once a member told me that the "other private members" had talked him out of joining because it's a waste of time and money. All they do in there is rehashing the old system and tweaking them.

And there's no re-hashing what can't work, eg, "net betting".

There's no point pretending one can be two or more (separate) players, to then play as one (together). One player is already only one player, can never be two or more actual players (, with twice or more the BR).

The idea of players saving some commission(s) by removing the overlapping bets, and passing those to the winner(s) after would be a good one were it allowed. (But would involve only the commission(s)... by paying one's self the overlapping bets, one doesn't lose that, but doesn't win it either.)

In practice, "net betting" performs really well only when both sides of the betting approach are "hitting" (, when each is the higher of the bets then). So, like any other scammish system, it does really well only when it's "hitting".

Furthermore, one player means one system... one can possess only one overall system. But "net betting" would have the one (best) system played against itself; and with its betting progressions not really progressions, because the advantages of the high and low bets are no longer available.

It is very interesting and congratulations.

Would anybody explain for a newbie what SKOR play is? How to bet and what to bet when?

Thanks.

Bambura

Hmmm, interesting. You guys seem to be obsessed. Everyone who plays with me is a liar. Ha. I'll be playing the Nov 29th tournment at GoldStrike. Several of the guys you call liars will be there. You'll have the perfect opportunity to call them liars to their face. All you got to do is show up. Ha, fat chance.

OH, and we'll be playing a littlle open floor Bac as well. Why don't you join us? You know, put your money where your mouth is. Let's see.

Originally Posted by Ellis

OH, and we'll be playing a littlle open floor Bac as well. Why don't you join us? You know, put your money where your mouth is. Let's see.

Realistically, Ellis, how many are in a reasonable proximity to Tunica to come down and watch. I mean Tunica is in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure if some were around they would come down, why not?

Question: I visited BTC today and found that there is no more public discourse. Is that true? Everybody has to pay $500 to join now? Pretty steep to shoot the bull about gambling, don't you think?

Also, I have NBJ and WCB. I believe keith gave them to me some time ago. I didn't realize you were still selling it. How long has it been since you first marketed that? Has it been 15 years? Time flies, huh.

Archer

Originally Posted by Ellis

Hmmm, interesting. You guys seem to be obsessed. Everyone who plays with me is a liar. Ha. I'll be playing the Nov 29th tournment at GoldStrike. Several of the guys you call liars will be there. You'll have the perfect opportunity to call them liars to their face. All you got to do is show up. Ha, fat chance.

Ellis,

Wow.

Only your own "hard-core" (cult) members are "obssessed" (with you).

I already pointed out, specially for yourself, that fixations aren't necessarily a bad thing when directed at something productive or even just pastime.

Gaming, itself, has become well-recognized and universal in its fields of study... spanning from the applied mathematics of military strategy, to tv-game shows, and to the psychology of (silly and ritualistic) children's games.

But "problems" start when any game, or any thing for that matter, becomes overly "associated" (by force) with any one person. Then one begins to lose sight of it, and some of those goals partially listed in the second paragragh. Such as how the game is played, instead of the "claims/dares" beforehand, and grandstanding afterward.

I think it's a real credit to, eg, the hockey-greats like Gretzky who silently kept the focus of that game where it belonged. (Hats off.)