UPDATE: BELOW IS THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE FOR ARCHIVE PURPOSES. THANKS TO GARNABBY AND NO SLEEP ALL DAY AND NIGHT, I MANAGED TO UPLOAD EVERYTHING I HAVE. SEE THE THIRD THREAD BELOW FOR THE LINK!

I've got several hundred systems for roulette, baccarat, craps and blackjack.

Some sell on the net for hundreds of dollars. A few for a few thousand dollars.

Send me $0.00 and I will send you a few. Depending on how large a file I can send through email - anyone know what that is nowadays? - I can send you all of them for the same low price of $0.00.

What do I ask in return? If they work, email me and arrange to send me a few bucks for helping you. If they don't work? Don't blame me - I didn't create them.

Honestly, I have looked at perhaps 25% of them. Some are just nonsense, some are wordy and MAY be okay. Some appear good - with failures that claim to be overcome by wins. So, you would have to review them against real results you have or obtain to verify if they are good or not.

If they look very good to you - again - email me and let me know because - again - I haven't reviewed all of them or many of them in detail.

Eirescott

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JJM5S4X0

eirescott,

Why not upload 'em, and email out the file-link to only those interested? MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service allows for 250 Mb... if i recall.

Thanks.

HERE IS THE MEGAUPLOAD LINK UNZIP IT AND USE ADOBE OR OPENOFFICE - AND IN SOME CASES THERE IS A .EXE FILE TO ACCESS THE WEB FOR THE FILE AND/OR TO OPERATE IT ON YOUR SYSTEM.

IF YOU DO WELL WITH ANY OF THESE LET ME KNOW.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JJM5S4X0




ORIGINAL MESSAGE BEFORE EDITING:

Okay, I have to go to my other computer where the files are. Should be shortly - or the next few hours at most as my wife has been addicted to online games this past week!

I wanted some feedback from those who view or test them. I'm not holding my breath, but I viewed several as I had said and some LOOK decent or at least they contain some cerebral effort with their plan. The problem is testing a long term expectation for several - let alone ALL - that look good takes months of study. I was looking for some sort of honest interest where those interested could "promise" to let me/us know how the system faired.

That said, I'll figure out how to use megaupload and return with a link soon.

DS

HERE THEY ARE:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JJM5S4X0

Thanks for sharing these with us.

just remember folks that there is no system out there that will beat the casino in the long run. Just think one thing when you read these systems why in the world would anybody make a system that works and then sell that system it is because the system dose not work and they are praying on stupid hopeless gamblers seeking the pie in the sky and only getting a free meal at the buffet for losing 1000's at the tables.

jeffo540,

By implying (i think) "never", why play the game at all? Will this approach make you a SMART HOPEFUL gambler "getting a free meal at the buffet for losing 1000's at the tables"? (I don't understand why all the posters claiming to understand what doesn't work would post at all. They should then truly know better: that we each know what we each have won/lost, and that some of us want to (for whichever reason(s)) continue to improve/better our own understanding of the game.)

Anyway, by looking at some of the failed approaches, another may spot something else to try, or at least know which can't work.

garnabby,

All I am saying is that I do not want people to believe that there is a way to beat the game of baccarat. You can use whatever system you want to use and I am telling you now it will work some of the time and at other times it will not work and if you did all the math I am sure it would all work out to the house edge for the game. The game of baccarat is just pure and simple a guessing game. But for all you out there that want to have fun trying systems to beat the game go for it, but just make sure you are not using the rent money because you might end up out on the street.

No, the "fun" here is providing some sort of PROOF the game can be properly beaten, in finally seeing all the naysayers retreat to something like, "Okay, yes, well if you're going to do it that way... ."

The larger "picture" here is society's reluctance to new ideas, whether those ultimately ever "hold court" or not. I forget who said, "When one man feels, the community reels", but that's from the book "Philosophies of Love." I guess only the truly-passionate about anything ever stand a chance of bringing it into fruition.

For most who i think are as above, the smaller, day-to-day "picture" is more like something i posted at the GG,

"At the other end of the spectrum it's those who claim "35 units each and every shoe" who have blocked themselves off the most from any possible real solution(s) to the game.

An old acquaintance of mine once told me, "We have the same drive to succeed, but different outlooks on how to arrive at success." He slept around with rich (and, sometimes, married) women to work his way up. I always tried to do whatever i wanted, long as i also understood and enjoyed it.

Baccarat is my hobby, albeit A BIT of an addiction. But the casinos by NO means run or complement any part of my life.

Perhaps this is the only way to really control and exploit such things."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course i'm open to any proof(s) to the contrary by yourself; or at least to learning of the basis of any by another. On what do you base your own conclusion(s)?

eirescott: Thanks a lot for the link. Of course, I don't expect to find a foolproof system here or anywhere else, but if I can get even one new (possibly worthwhile) idea from any of the documents, I'll be thrilled! I'll post back if I find anything really good after I've read and digested the material. Thanks again!

Well if you are looking for PROOF granabby do a simple web search for "CAN YOU BEAT THE GAME OF BACCARAT" you might find something like this in your search for PROOF. It looks like the best you are going to be able to do is just improve your knowledge of the game, well good luck anyways.

"A huge majority of casinos, professional gamblers and even gambling novices all agree that there is no such thing as a foolproof baccarat system. Some other casino games involve a little more skill and knowledge, but baccarat is essentially a game of chance.
Click here to read more about how to become a better baccarat player. GamblingPlanet.org specifically states that no baccarat system is entirely reliable, but the website does offer some advice on building a baccarat strategy based on improved knowledge of the game. "
By Melanie Fischer

If you do a little research on baccarat and baccarat systems the people that are NOT trying to sell you a system and have some brains about gambling and house odds will tell you the best strategy for baccarat is just bet bank all the time, so my question is should we fallow what the system hustlers say and waste are time reading and trying to implement the system into real play and then wonder why we lost or just do what the experts say and save are self the time of all that reading and studying and still lose just as much in the long run?

There is no system out there that will improve your odds for this game if there was, someone by now would have already found it and would be using it and the casino would know about it and would have to change the rules so it can still keep a house edge over a player, just like they did for black jack, so they will make a profit, they are not in business to give out free money.

Well, I said I'd post back if I found anything worthwhile, so here goes. As I already emailed the OP and thanked him for his efforts, most of the material is garbage, as was to be expected. It's interesting and somewhat amazing seeing what kind of stuff has actually been peddled to the more gullible gamblers among us. However, there are a few selections that contain what I consider to be good advice and make for enjoyable reading even if they're unlikely to result in improved profits.

In particular, Steven Heller's "Power Blackjack" really got my attention; although from what little I've already seen about card clumping, it's about as useful in BJ as dice control is in craps! Nonetheless, the main reason I'm interested in what Heller has to say is because I found his material in the first 47 pages so right-on and down-to-earth. It sounds like the author was right beside me over the past 24 years of casino BJ! Unfortunately, the download contains only the first 47 pages out of over 200, so I'm really curious what else he has to say. Mr. Heller's untimely death shortly after the book was published probably didn't help its popularity, and so far I haven't been able to locate it. The few listings I've uncovered have it going for $70 to over $100, and even then it's unavailable. (Of course, there's no way I'd pay that much for the book anyway.)

Does anyone out there possibly have a scan of the entire book or some leads they might be willing to share? Thanks!

Hi guys i am sorta new here and..i am just wondering what types of system to you which you are referring?I am keen to know about reading trends like Big Road,Big EYes,Small Roads,etc...Cockroach. Does the system tell you about it?Btw i am from Malaysia and cosidered an Asian country and therefore these trends or scorecards are readily available
Give some opinons folks


Rgds
Shane

eirescott, thanks for your effort! i downloaded the systems and just now in the process of looling at them. i did for the heck of it try dragon intermediate level one on my lucky nine baccarat software, it's now called win@baccarat. i played 1000 hans actually 1016. final results were...-$26.75... turnover $4890.00.... lost .5%...this was using a $5.00 unit...i was up as much as 20 units in the beginning but slowly lost it all back...the only thing i changed with the instructions was when i got up 5 units i quit and chaned to a new shoe the losing shoes i didn;t change anything, i lost 15 and 18 units several times... i may try it one more time using this method...win or lose 5 units change shoes, the reason being the losses did seem to come in multiples, take away 4 or 5 of those bad shoes and iwould've come out postive.
thanks again,
take the win

just finished another 500 hands... i played win 5 or lose 5 units on any one shoe, the only thing is , if i was up 2 units and then lost the 5 units, i left the shoe with a -3 units, on the other hand, i played till i was up 5 units before exiting the shoe... the results are... 500 hands...winnings $240.00... turnover, $2465.00...winning percentage, 9.70...this is using a $5.00 unit

ok, here's another 500 hands... remember now i play with the $5.00 unit...i lost $65.75 the turnover (that's total amount of money bet) was $2515.00...losing % was 2.6

this session had a high of +18 units and fell to a low of - 28 units, a swing of about 46 units...this is 2000 hands so far and from past experiences with other methods, this is generally where you run into a wall, you can win like crazy but after 2 to 3 thousand hands, the wheels start to fall off. i saw a little bit of that midway through this last session, i started seeing a lot of cluster loses, remember now. i bet a 1-1-3, whenever i lose that sequence, i shuffle and start a new shoe, same goes for when i win 5 units. one time i shuffled 11 straight times before i had a +5 win, remember also you don't necessarily lose 5 units for the shoe, you can be up 4 unlts then lose a 1-1-3 and you lost -1 unit for the shoe. anyway i'm gonna try at least a couple more sessions before i either change to something else or discover another tweak or two...one of the tweaks i've thought about on other methods i play with is to develop a rating system for the shoe your involved with...goes something like this...rate it 1 through 5, 1 being it's a hard struggle ,2 only slightly better, 3 is just average, 4 it's going pretty good and 5 put the hammer down... where this could come into play with what i'm currently working with is, i might not try to get a + 5 on a shoe that rates 1, 2 or 3, i might settle for a 1 or 2 unit win... i'll report back later.

here's another 503 hands...loss $107.00...turnover, $2685.00...loss of 4%

this session was really disappointing...the reason behind shuffeling after a loss was to try and avoid cluster losses, it didn't really seem to make that much difference, i just saw alot of what seemed like weird things happening, as i have for the last 11 years of playing this software, i wonder if it's legit...having said that,when i use to play blackjack in vegas, they'd switch dealers on me, and i'd swear i was being cheated, you know, all those times you'd have a 20 and they'd have a 16 and by god they would draw out...i don't know but sometimes it just don't seem right...i'll try 1 more session....does anybody practice with win@baccarat software...the free edition? if i could find something else to practice with that has the same abilities, i'd definitely like to give it a try.

here's another 435 hands...winnings, +$181.25...turnover, $2140.00...winning %, 8.5

this session was a little more productive, at least towards the end, the session had a low of -16 units and i ended it at the high of +36 units...the reason i didn't complete the entire 500 hand was because of the winning streak i was on towards the end of the session, i still had 65 more hands to play but i just didn't want to risk this nice win with something disasterous at the very end, yes, i'll still have to play those 65 hands eventually, but i wanted to clear my cache start the software over etc....i've played approximatly the equivelent of 80 shoes with this system and have won about net 44 units, thats after commision, so really not too bad...any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

i made a math error, i said 80 shoes, i played approximately 3000 hands... 3000 divided by 80 hands per shoe is about 38 shoes that actually makes a big difference, at 44 net units thats not too bad, however some of the wins did seem to be an anomaly, but so did some of the cluster of losses.

So what is your take on the dragon system it is supposed to win something in the order of 5 units a shoe

hey natural9, first of all, to answer your question, there's just not enuff data to say if it would work consistently all the time, however, it has worked for me, i just completed another 1006 hands and won 41 units net after commission...id like to get about 10 people to join me in a private forum, there's some tweaks to this thing that i think could be beneficial...10 people can test a whole lot more data than i can all by myself...if anyone is interested go download this free edition. Baccarat System for a PROVEN Baccarat Strategy - Predictor System Download
find the one that says lite, it's the free one, after a few shoes you will have send for a code to unlock it,but it's been no big deal for me for 11 years now, no spam, or anything like that.
this way we're all on the same page, or if there's any other software to test with, i'd be willing to take a look.
one thing to remember, if you discover a way to win at the casino's, they're not gonna let you do it very much, you're not gonna go in there every few days and take several hundred dollars out, just not gonna happen, they won't allow it. a person really needs to have a plan on how not to "get caught" so to speak and this includes disguises, different player names on players cards even fake id, you need to map out your casinos and go through your list before you ever come back to the one you started at, and this time on a different shift. the reason i'm saying all this is a guy could work 20 years on a method, finally discover how to win, and then boom, they drop the hammer on you, you're no longer welcome in this casino, sad but true, it's happened.

There are big wraps on dragon in GG but who knows
Your idea bout putting group together sounds good why not put group together to test various systems if you had like 10 people test ten shoes each to start see how a method fares then test on if it not reach failure
point It sure would take a lot of guess work out on whether a method truly works or not

exactly natural9, i'm new to this forum and don't know my way around too good, how do we start a group? and how or what do you use to test with?

You could go to social groups and click on the "create a new group" tab.

For "tests", you could use live shoe results or results from the Zumma tester book.

Don't they have any laws against this?

joshky,

Laws against fake id's, or against bannings?

One of the many good reasons i "quit" bj (a long time ago) were the ever-mounting hostilities involved. If you thought much of the "friction" between myself and Savant, obviously still in some way at the bj-thing, then imagine the pettiness from the casinos (, not to mention the other players at the table, and anyone else there.) The worst way to run into that is head on, trying to out-disguise them. For sure a few persons have come out big "winners" or cheaters, whichever you want to call them, but what did it really get nearly all of them? Lengthy jail-terms, hefty-fines, and felony-records (with pages of parole-restrictions, etc). Ever see that tv-program called "Breaking Vegas"? I don't recall a single episode in which the "geniuses" didn't end up getting caught.

A quote from John May's baccarat book, "We can therefore deduce that the game can be beaten because baccarat, as a general rule, has nothing like the heat associated with blackjack. You can spread up to the table maximum and down again, indeed you can sit out hands, no one will care. As David Sklansky wrote in Getting The Best Of It "There is not yet any paranoia among the casinos regarding counting...Players can bet anywhere from $5 up to $50,000 at any time. " ($50,000 is actually pretty conservative for bac nowadays). Obviously, if you could only make one $50,000 bet a year with a 100% edge, your EV for that year is still $50,000." Wouldn't it then be better for us to "try to win less", and "thank the lucky stars above" for being able to accomplish that; and work to ingratiate ourselves with the casinos, in the more-refined "spirit" of this game, itself?

This game is so different from bj. W/o getting into a lot of specifics here, so then are egs, overcoming/the consequences of, and the manners by which those are addressed. (In any event, i know of no case in which someone "playing by their rules" spent 20 years for nothing.)

I contacted the AGCO - which overlooks the gaming in Ontario Canada - and asked some specific questions.

This was a couple of months ago. I asked - and re-asked a few times throughout the conversation - if there was a law against being ejected from a casino in Ontario.

The woman - who was among the top officials at the AGCO - wondered why I was concerned about this. She said that there was a "private property" issue that could have you ejected from the property - but used only in circumstances where someone was a threat or a major disturbance to the environment - I'm paraphrasing.

Basically, NO ONE had EVER been ejected for "winning" I was told. She was quite emphatic and almost laughing - sounding very "why would that happen" - with her reactions.

So, according to the AGCO, you won't/can't get thrown out for winning.

Now, I made it clear that I would be back in touch with her if this ever happened to me.

The OLG - which "owns" and operates most of the casinos in Ontario - has had quite a lot of NEGATIVE media attention over its clandestine lottery actions in the very recent past. The LAST thing they need is MORE negative publicity.

This doesn't mean you WON'T have a problem if you keep winning - but it is a "good" time to be winning and NOT worry too much about ejection. Just don't play drunk - don't get loud or obnoxious. Play quietly - win - leave.

i don't know, but i think you guys are being a little naive, i lived in vegas on different occasions, got to know several pit boss's, even went out drinkin' with them at times, and i'm told the casino loves you as long as your a loser, but the minute you start winning, it all changes... i, myself have been asked to leave and not come back and it wasn't even because i was winning, it was because i played or looked somewhat like a counter, this was back in the 80's and a time when there was a lot of paranonia about bj, the corporations had just taken over and they hired their bean counters and their surveilence men and they just weren't going to be "cheated"... things are alot more calm now days, but you start winning consistently and you will go under investigation, first to see if you're cheating, then they'll check with other casino's and if you're winning there too, you're gonna be asked to leave and they have every right to do it, at least here in the USA...some of the oldtimers may remember the sign the las vegas hilton put up right out in the front entrence, it said, we reserve the right to refuse service, they had just won a lawsuit filed against them by some counters, and the court agreed with the casino, you can refuse anybody,for any reason. so again, i say, if you start winning and keep winning, and you don't have a way to disguise who you are, you're days as a player are numbered.

eirescott,

It's my understanding (from the legal side of it) that indeed no one has ever been formally banned from playing bj here in Ontario. However, for a few years a while back, i had observed even many of the small bj-games with plaques prohibiting mid-shoe entry. They stopped doing that when business plummeted but the same old "mentalilty" (if you catch my drift) still prevails, regardless how "innocently" they'll deny it. Asfaras i know, they may (legally) ban someone but only from one specific game at a time. Most of our casino-related laws were just carried over from the United States laws. But it's still perfectly legal in Ontario, last time i checked with my lawyer, to play poker for any stakes long as you're not selling $80-sandwiches to cover admission.

Anyway, i just plain gave up with those guys, went across to the MGM in Detroit every week a while back. Always treated me like a king, and exchanged my money for more than it was worth (, and w/o any fee, etc, to do so.) In fact, i used to carry the limit $10,000 in cash across the customs station so many times that i often ended up speaking, albeit breifly, with troopers and fbi persons about something called, "structuring". My first answer was always, "They NEVER cheat you at the MGM."

Anyways, also i have personally spoken to members of that "organization" eirescott mentioned all the way up to (at least persons representing) the superintendant of the OPP, the Ontario minister of commerce, and the attorney general at the time. And had received thusly-signed correspondence in the process. If you think you can believe a word they say, think again. And then think some more.



takethe win,

"I don't know, but i think you guys are being a little naive." Sometimes the winners are treated even better because those casinos want their money back; some casinos see threat behind every pair of sun-glasses. They're all very different. I heard it's the MGM's policy to allow a player at a $25 bj-table to win an additional $10,000 after being tagged a "wiseguy" before beginning to take some sort of action. (They use a 6-deck shoe there, and w/o all the "set-ups" it's still possible for a very-good counter to make some sort of a living... for a while.)

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but our differences lay in the details. 99.9% of what any casino-employee is allowed to say, or will tell anyone else isn't the 0.1% found only in the details elsewhere. And every single one of these forums has been a complete "eye-opener" for me, since i took my own little "sabbatical" from the game for personal reasons. What utter nonsense from persons who should know better. I hope i never end up here and there with 1000 posts all essentially saying the same thing... nothing. I guess the long arms of the casinos have now made their way well beyond the "gambling clubs", the popular tv/movie-culture, the paper-back "tell-all" books, and gambling-supplies industries into our very homes... to the most-vulnernable among us.

Anyway, you're more than welcome to SPECIFICALLY take issue with ANYTHING i have written. It's easy to write at length w/o contradiction, etc, when you'v lived it, and you're not profiting a penny by it. (Which better way to learn than out in the open? Don't worry, for any viable profession there is always a next level. Eg, even though many poker-players now play well as the other by it, it is no less-profit for any of them to play together in the same "pot" (for the antes, and other bets,) because no one of them will have the "upperhand" all the time. An other way to look at it is, that while the casinos will enjoy the best of it at one time, game theory will still work for the player at another... there's still a bj-game, nay even more in some ways because of the business the counting-hype still brings in; and there will always be even more still of a baccarat game.