I am a somewhat new student of advantage play, and I came across Baccarat. From the research that I have done, all credible sources cite Baccarat as unbeatable or extremely impractical. Reading through the threads, I see a lot of "voodoo" strategies, although there is a RoR calculator, implying that someone has a calculated advantage/standard deviation. So I guess my question is... is Baccarat beatable, and what techniques can exploit the beatability (if there is any)?

SleightOfHand,

Ultimately each and every game is beatable, at least for a while, until the other side catches up. Unfortunately, or fortunately (however one looks at it,) baccarat presents few fingerholds for the analysts but a host of pitfalls for the superstitious by way of the "patterns" of outcomes of the player or banker "choices". Such challenges are met by ever-more resourceful means, making the due rewards that much more greater, mentally and pyschologically, and perhaps finacially.

Before game theory, itself, most aspects of most of the more-technical games were largely debatable. Afterwards, we realized a lot of the older "seems to work" strategies were in fact good. But at the time, superstition, fallacy, lack of proof (in an uncertain physical universe), and other forces were enough resistance. (Even "everyone else playing nonsense strategies" often made the truly-optimal strategies ineffective for the few who got it right. Superstition eventually gives way to science, and then to truer forms of religion for all.)

Sometimes we are the pioneers working toward the new science(s). And alongside the scammers/and their deluded prey, until we can provide real competition/options. When bj card-counting began, even the casinos (and other players) doubted it. But science won out. And will again over the renewed echos there is no longer a player advantage there. (Except for the non-counter casino-taboo majority who still resist the counters sitting at tables today.) Richard Marcus has just released a new card-counting system for baccarat. Now there are more PROOFS against such ever being possible than there have been such presented in baccarat; and his claims grew less and less dramatic up to its release, (and in the manner in which most scammers search for the right affordable "hook" after first testing the waters,) but that by no means precludes true paradigm-shifts to eg, asking what happens when the count is neutral, if no other count is of use. Beyond that, asking can theory quantitatively get beneath the physical actually-occurring patterns there. Or as you alluded to, calculating RoR wrt any of the possible options and strategies in baccarat to develop utility (-theory) applications to win smaller amounts over longer periods of play more safely than in other games.

Now i'm being long-winded here, but whether we want to admit it or not, the future is coming, to unravel even the "paradoxes" of the (rules of the) game of baccarat, itself. Physicists certainly know we can't change the past but leave open being able to decide it right up till and including the very moment it happens, approaching the processes which govern HOW the quantum-fields collapse (choosing one outcome over another in a given time and place now.) Devices, like re-inventions of our computers, and programs to operate those, are already on their drawing boards. But maybe we can do more now with what we already have at hand. But thank you for not painting all of us with the "voodoo" colors.

sigh.

SleightOfHand,

I've indicated MY specific strategies in the free private forum (but with a limited # of members to allow participants a chance to do so in a controlled environment,) to which you were invited, and am slowly expanding upon that outline there. Other specific information is in also the main forum in bit and pieces.

In any event, i am only trying to further some common cause(s). Sorry if you find that as something else.

Does "it" mean your site? You have your own site which you want to post here? Is that what you are asking?

Ah yes, another legitimate question with a vague, long-winded response that doesn’t answer the question and leaves the original poster unsatisfied. If only they had asked the right person they could have gotten a very specific and consise answer.

http://baccaratforums.com/t54/#post12468

Savant,

Thanks for the opportunity to give my final thoughts on this thread.

Maybe you and SleightOfHand SHOULD take your silly responses to others' expert and respestful answers back to the throngs of bj players "hanging (more like gagging?) on your every words over at that bj forum." LOL.

When you've finally perfected your "coupon" hustling, (and made your first millions), be sure to come right back here to let us all know EXACTLY how you managed it.

In any event, it sure is getting easier to reply to even you, Savant. (What's that, you're running out of "original material"? Oops, through all that other "stuff" i almost forgot you never had any. How about an encore via your last post to date in the thread Baccarat axiom ?)

First of all, thanks for responding with some helpful advice that both answers the original question and will help the other members become better players. A less respectable person might have just made personal attacks against me. That’s really classy. I can see why this website is so active.

As far as “original material” goes, it’s not my fault if members keep asking the same questions over and over again. Perhaps if you gave them a good answer they wouldn’t have to keep asking. Don’t get upset with me if people aren’t satisfied with answers like “the future is coming, to unravel even the "paradoxes" of the (rules of the) game of baccarat, itself.” If you can’t give them practical advice, don’t bother at all.

Coupon play probably won’t make anybody rich. A thousand or so per month used to be possible and several thousand per month online was typical. That is the extent of it unless you have a huge bankroll and/or can take advantage of bigger rebate programs. No matter how you look at it, it sure beats using a tired old progression system or looking for imaginary patterns and losing money on each hand. The original poster was asking about legitimate ways to get a mathematical advantage over the casino. I gave some of the easiest and most common methods, and this post gives some more basic information. You gave nothing and continue to reply with nothing. At least I'm trying. I answered more questions with one post than you have with all of your posts combined. At this rate we might start getting a little traffic at this website!

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Step right up folks for your $1000 coupon and free z-scores (from "Blackjack Attack" of course)... what's that, "used to get"?... what's that, ever could get (, in case anyone's still really wondering)?... what's that, Savant holds the exclusive rights to the risk-of-ruin calculator, etc, and its usage?... what's that, Savant is "trying"?... what's that, Savant can't win a logical argument so it is on to a "pissing contest"?...what's that, Savant's the self-appointed "traffic guard" now; and to save us from domination, misinformation, and personal attacks with his new-and-exciting "easiest and most common methods"... and what's that, it's "we" now, let's all kiss and make up?... what's that, all posts/replies are intented to be taken literally now (as per the "Attack" book); and everyone must reply now in full or else?... what's that, Savant is back to "imaginary patterns" but iff (if and only if) he's not using those himself, to build a case for 1.06%, and to let us all know he knows how most of us play... what's that, Savant's a bj-sequencing prodigy(?) come from above to save the (already) free world?... why not, who cares.

P.S. Savant (or should i say idiot-savant w/ the savant part), is there anything or anyone else on this site you still have to pee on? As it appears that's what YOU've finally reduced YOURself to.

Can you give us another savvy "show" please... live and direct from "locally"...

(Something to surpass your posts in the thread Baccarat axiom i hope.)

I asked someone who is highly respected for his opinion about baccarat being beatable. His quote: "There is no doubt baccarat is beatable and this has been demonstrated for over 8 years now." He then went on to name his best books. Here they are. Notice, not ONE of these is on the Best Ten Baccarat Books List.

"The methods are mostly the same ones used for BJ. A few good sources would be Steve Forte's "Casino Game Protection", George Joseph's "Effects of Marked Cards in a Baccarat Game" and, or course, CAA."

David Sklansky's book: Getting the best of it has a chapter on counting the 2s at baccarat. (Another opinion has it that the 4s are the most important cards in the game, for the player.) What is your opinion?

so.. is baccarat beatable??

by beatable you mean winning consistently over time..i believe yes..

Yes, and easy, you can win it even with your eyes closed.